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#751
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Please post the entire conversation history.
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#752
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Just spent an hour reading these posts. I have discovered one thing, there are a lot of hostile people out there. Stick to the subject instead of bullying one another. People seem to have a lot of guts when they are behind a keyboard in the safety of their homes.
Had to post since I wanted to reach my 800th post. Last edited by Buythatcard; 02-20-2017 at 10:14 AM. |
#753
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The way I read your last post Cortney, is that you believe SGC will holder a known trimmed/altered card with a number grade instead of Authentic. I am not sure that is the case. PSA will not either, since there are no qualifiers for trimmed or skinned or recolored. Those are Authentic - Altered at PSA as well. Yes, a card with writing on it could be a PSA 8(MK) or an SGC 1.5, and those are drastically different things. But if SGC is grading trimmed cards with a number and you have proof of that, that would hurt them as well.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#754
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#755
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Peter, Most high end collectors aren't indifferent to that (or at least experienced ones). As a rookie, like everyone else, I bought the holder as opposed to the card. As I became educated, I started ignoring grades and buying the card. Granted, I may have wanted a PSA 8 52 Mantle, and could have gotten a 7 that looked like an 8, but sometimes, you just want the grade b/c it grows in value faster. But, in that situation, I (personally) wait until the "right" 8 comes along. Just last week I had a VERY good friend come to me for advice on a particular card in the 30K range. It was an attrocious 8.5 and one I'd cringe at everytime I pulled it out to look at it if I owned it. That being said, I talked him into waiting for a 9 to come along (for a multitude of reasons but mainly b/c of how bad the 8.5 was and the difference in 8.5 to 9 in terms of long term value/investment on vintage). And, also to make sure he does the same thing with a 9.............get one with great eye appeal. Don't lump all high end collectors into the same pool. Some of us started out with the right idea but it took being seasoned or burned due to value to realize that all "8's" are not created equal. Last edited by Whodunit; 02-20-2017 at 10:32 AM. |
#756
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Thanks for the clarification.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#757
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#758
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#759
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Every old timer I have spoken with agrees with you 100%. These great, great looking pre war cards just didn't exist before. If folks are collecting cards in super high condition then they should know there is a good chance the card they own has been cleaned or worse.... Here is a message I got a few days ago from someone that anyone who has been in the hobby 10+ yrs knows the name of...but he asked me to keep him anonymous so I am doing so..
Don't these buyers of high end cards realize that this 36 DiMaggio is just the very tip of the iceberg, that there are in fact thousands and thousands of altered cards that end up slabbed? Skilled paper restorers learned a long time ago that most of their work will go undetected by TPG's, and these submissions have been going on for many years. Old time collectors who were around in the 1960's and 70's all agree they rarely ever saw pristine vintage cards. Now, they are all over the hobby. They are the engine that drive the very profitable registry market, so it's conceivable the graders turn a blind eye to them. I wonder if this part of the hobby will ever be publicly exposed by say an FBI investigation? Quote:
__________________
Leon Luckey |
#760
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#761
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I think Cortney and Brent had a very good friendship which benefited both of them for many years. Sorry, it has gone south as hate and love both use the same part of the brain.
Cortney, I have never met you, or spoke to you. All I can go off from are your postings on this one thread. I like hearing the perspective from a buyer of high money cards in "PSA" holders where you seem to buy and sell these cards like commodities. my hunch isyourreally good at what you do and it's rare you have a bad deal. You remind me of one of the Hunt brothers back in the late 70s/80s. Upon the rare impulse I have to buy a 25k card or higher in a PSA holder, rest assured I will attempt to win it as a snipe or a late night bid. My suspicions were dead on, that some people like to buy these cards like Apple shares. PWCC I have always supported with positive post in recent years. Sorry you had a relationship go south from a large consignor. However, everything happens for a reason and I'm sure other future consigners will pick up the slack on the consignment front. I have said it before and I'll say it again. I think PWCC runs a professional operation and I'm very impressed with their market dominance in Ebay. I have spoke to Brent before both on the phone and in person at the National. It's safe to say I like him and support him and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Betsy has returned emails to me when I was in communication with them and she was very professional and courteous as well. I won 8 cards from them two weeks ago and I won a card from them 2 days ago so needless to say I will still be a customer of theirs. I think at this point this thread has become a soapbox thread with Cortney and his way of outing Brent for how he feels. As much as I like reality TV, maybe a new thread should start on that theme.
__________________
Love Ty Cobb rare items and baseball currency from the 19th Century. |
#762
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I think we both know this isn't completely true. There have been dozens of important finds of high-grade cards, both pre-war and post-war in the last 30 years. Some of them have been publicized on this very forum. I have personally seen a large quantity of these high-grade cards when they were first discovered--everything from T206s, Sport Kings and Diamond Stars taken from unopened packs to perfect condition 1933 Goudeys. And we all know of the 1914 and 1915 Cracker Jack factory sets that have been found and graded as well as large accumulations of candy/caramel cards such as those which constituted the "Black Swamp" find. There have also been many collections, like that of Lionel Carter or the discoveries of Alan Rosen, that have brought thousands more original, high-grade cards into the marketplace. |
#763
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http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...e?itemid=41097 The concept and idea of grading is a good one, what it has become is ludicrous in my opinion. The price differences people will pay between grades when the entire system is severely flawed is absurd. |
#764
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Michael beat me to it.... |
#765
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First, Cortney was arguing that he collects PSA because SGC doesn't use qualifiers, not because SGC grades altered cards. Second, the example you give is a statistical outlier. To the best of my knowledge, there were some issued 1908 PC770s that have normal postcard cuts and some that were unissued and have somewhat haphazard hand cuts--they would be similar in nature to Wheaties or Post Cereal cards cut off of boxes. Certainly, these types of cuts were not meant to be deceptive or to artificially improve the condition of the postcard in question. |
#766
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Regarding Michael's comment to Leon, of course there have been great finds. I am sure Leon did not mean to imply, and I certainly did not, that every high grade card has been worked on. But to my mind none of that changes that card doctoring is rampant in this hobby.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 02-20-2017 at 11:54 AM. |
#767
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__________________
Leon Luckey |
#768
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The Flick was in an Authentic holder before. If SGC was aware that some may have been issued that way (which has not been proven by the way as I have seen untrimmed ALPCs with the overprint and schedule back), they should at least be consistent. Last edited by Bicem; 02-20-2017 at 12:16 PM. |
#769
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James |
#770
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__________________
Neal Successful transactions with Peter Spaeth, raulus, ghostmarcelle, Phil Garry, Don Hontz, JStottlemire, maj78, bcbgcbrcb, secondhandwatches, esehobmbre, Leon, Jetsfan, Brian Van Horn, Brian Dwyer, MGHPro, DeanH, canofcorn, Zigger Zagger, conor912, RayBShotz, Jay Wolt, AConte, Halbig Vintage and many others |
#771
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correct, my point exactly, thus he is ensured that he would never owe anything when he got that text in this version of the explanation of the text. (doesnt matter how or if PWCC knew there would be a higher bid or not)
Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 02-20-2017 at 01:09 PM. |
#772
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Not that I have read. I'm just posting my opinion and putting a lighter tone on it.
__________________
Love Ty Cobb rare items and baseball currency from the 19th Century. |
#773
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As long as you have stuff, you might as well be made of
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#774
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#775
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indeed
__________________
Neal Successful transactions with Peter Spaeth, raulus, ghostmarcelle, Phil Garry, Don Hontz, JStottlemire, maj78, bcbgcbrcb, secondhandwatches, esehobmbre, Leon, Jetsfan, Brian Van Horn, Brian Dwyer, MGHPro, DeanH, canofcorn, Zigger Zagger, conor912, RayBShotz, Jay Wolt, AConte, Halbig Vintage and many others Last edited by Neal; 02-20-2017 at 02:01 PM. |
#776
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Altering
Altering is more often than not on high dollar as opposed to just high grade items. Anything where even a grade bump means good profits (though the doctors seem to shoot for 2 or more). Set up at some shows you would be amazed how often your nice cards with a "fixable flaw" get bought by the same individuals. It is not really all that hidden. That said there are plenty of high grade cards not messed with.
Last edited by glynparson; 02-20-2017 at 02:30 PM. |
#777
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__________________
Nick M |
#778
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Great points Peter.
__________________
Nick M |
#779
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I admire you coming forward with this information. After reading that text message (just save the picture and you can enlarge the text) and what you said in the above statement, how can anyone have any faith you aren't being shilled when go after a card by PWCC?! I'm just scratching my head... On another note, I really enjoy these forums, lots of great information and people. I'm not here to argue with anyone as most people have good points. I just believe in having integrity and it doesn't seem like PWCC has any. I always sensed some corruption. Again, these forums are great for collectors discussing sports cards, lots of amazing information both good and bad.
__________________
Nick M Last edited by nrm1977; 02-20-2017 at 10:13 PM. |
#780
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It's kinda common sense when you have bidders with tons of bid retractions along with high percentages of bids with only PWCC that rampant shilling is taking place. But let's face it, bidders will keep bidding to get access to quality material and consigners will keep consigning to get top dollar.
I would hope that those that participate in PWCC auctions go in with a budgetary plan and a good sniping software. As for the DiMaggio, If you have knowledge that a card has been fixed up to the degree that this one was you should include that information to your buyers even if you think some of them won't care about its history and it will hurt short term profits. Protecting your reputation is by far worth more in the long term.
__________________
A.J. Johnson https://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/ajohnson39 *Proudest hobby accomplishment: finished the 1914 Cracker Jack set currently ranked #12 all-time |
#781
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Good point
That is a great point AJ but we unfortunately live in a world where short term financial game too often supersedes long term reputation. Quick buck versus respect.
__________________
Seeking Type 1 photos especially Ruth I still love the hobby |
#782
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Seems like this thread is finally run its course, until Cortney posts more of the conversation, or preferably all of it.
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#783
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Removed
Last edited by ezez420; 02-21-2017 at 12:39 PM. |
#784
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Hmm. The thread was just about to go off the front page and we still do not have the entire conversation that Cortney was hoping to give us.
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#785
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For the rest of us, we will wait for these inflated prices to fall and buy something for what its really worth. jeff |
#786
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right, perhaps he has been in talks with someone and has agreed not to show anything else. Someone that said has years of texts to only show 2 or 3 snippets really does not give fair context. Plus he kept saying he would show them and at the same time keeps saying that everything he says is the truth
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#787
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it looks like a "lovers spat" to me...which I'm guessing will disappear under the rug in typical fashion.
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#788
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Stuff trumps everything for most people. Just look at Goldin, everybody swore they would never buy from them again after the Mastro shill list. Then he had a lawyer send members letter because they were calling out very suspicious auctions. Now he is a advertiser on this site and people are posting pick up threads and complaining about not being able to bid in their auctions. No wonder the scammers love this hobby. |
#789
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Same thing I did with Legendary. Take a stand, people. jeff |
#790
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+1
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#791
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Will NEVER bid with Goldin
+2
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#792
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I whole-heartedly believe in the concept of "taking a stand" against companies with sketchy reputations, but proclaiming that you won't bid in their auctions isn't the way to do it. If even 100 dudes on the board "agreed" not to bid with a certain company, then game theory suggests another 100 dudes now have more incentive to "cheat" and bid because of the perceived opportunity for better prices. The net effect could be positive for the AH.
By contrast, I've decided that there are a few AH's to whom I will never consign material because of their reputation. Now if a 100 dudes started a movement to not consign to a certain company, that could actually have a material impact. Demand will always be there, but supply can be cut off. |
#793
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For instance. They had a card go to auction....a nice one. A big multi thousand dollar Cobb. Well centered. 40 days later the same Cobb sold again. Exact same Cobb, same serial number and everything. It went for only slightly more dollars and not one bidder on the second go around was the same person as the first time. I have seen nice looking tough backs, like American Beauty 350 and 460 cards sell for 40 dollars and less even, I have seen readily available high grade hall of famers go for Buzz Aldrin prices....but what I have never seen is someone bid on a card in their auction past what the price of a BIN is for the same card listed on Ebay. It is easy to say they bring high prices on certain items, but never higher than other cards in the same market they are selling them in(Ebay). Sure. Sometimes they do, but often times I believe there is just a random factor beneath that fact(tax returns, timing of collectors availability to bid, family problems, vacations etc). |
#794
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This post above was 3 days ago. This thread has run it's course, imo, and it doesn't look like ole financier Courtney is coming back. If there is any luck he won't have a choice in answering some questions in the future. But this thread is not on the original topic anymore. Courtney, or anyone, can start another one if they want to. Personally, I have bid with both Goldin and PWCC recently (and consigned) and will continue. IF others don't that is always their prerogative. Of course they both advertise here but I don't think either one is doing anything wrong in today's environment. I think both have made mistakes in the past, as we all have, and probably regret them just like we do when we make them. Those companies, and all companies and people, will be just as open to scrutiny in the future as they are now. Happy collecting.
__________________
Leon Luckey |
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