Shanus-REA suit

[the 'stache]

I just read this entire thing, start to finish. All I can say is, I'm so glad I didn't go into law. Studying legal history in college is one thing. I thoroughly enjoyed the hundreds of hours I spent researching precedent cases in Lexisnexis and Westlaw. And every single element of mock trial fascinated me. But the actual practice of law in the real world is so very different than the young idealist in me could have ever anticipated. Jeff, Larry et all, I don't know where you guys find the patience your chosen profession requires. Chapeau.

To briefly touch on the point that was discussed earlier, comparing the amount of corruption prevalent in our hobby to that within the legal and financial realms-there's really no comparison to be made, at all. There are going to be those who engage in nefarious activity in any large group of people. It's unavoidable. Money attracts the unscrupulous. But speaking as one who worked in the investments industry, and is familiar with the oversight and safeguards in place, the kind of underhanded behavior that runs rampant in our hobby could never exist there. Not on that scale.

[Snapolit1]

Silence in response to a jury verdict for fraud and award of punitive damages is nearly deafening. Had same thing happened to Probstein we’d be at outraged and or gleeful post 625 by now. Jury verdict seems to be given back of hand by even attorneys on the board who champion rooting out fraud in the industry. Odd to say the least.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Silence in response to a jury verdict for fraud and award of punitive damages is nearly deafening. Had same thing happened to Probstein we’d be at outraged and or gleeful post 625 by now. Jury verdict seems to be given back of hand by even attorneys on the board who champion rooting out fraud in the industry. Odd to say the least.

Relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit with numerous counts dismissed, Rob has a great reputation in the field and this is an isolated act, jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk about it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To be accurate, the Amended Complaint which is public had three counts.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk about it.

So you’re saying OJ might actually be guilty???? How dare you!

[Snapolit1]

[QUOTE=calvindog;1775580]Relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit with numerous counts dismissed, Rob has a great reputation in the field and this is an isolated act, jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk

I will definitely use the “relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit” language in a press release next time one of my clients gets whacked. Useful. Thanks.

[frankbmd]

[QUOTE=Snapolit1;1775594]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit with numerous counts dismissed, Rob has a great reputation in the field and this is an isolated act, jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk

I will definitely use the “relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit” language in a press release next time one of my clients gets whacked. Useful. Thanks.

Originally Posted by calvindog

Relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit with numerous counts dismissed, Rob has a great reputation in the field and this is an isolated act, jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk about it.

A reasonable estimation of legal fees for both parties, if known, would lend credence to the characterization of a “reasonably tiny jury verdict” as an accurate assessment of the result.

[calvindog]

[QUOTE=Snapolit1;1775594]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit with numerous counts dismissed, Rob has a great reputation in the field and this is an isolated act, jury verdicts do not necessarily equate to truth as learned by people who actually try cases for a living and don't just talk

I will definitely use the “relatively tiny jury verdict in response to a massive lawsuit” language in a press release next time one of my clients gets whacked. Useful. Thanks.

Congrats on having clients, surprised me.

[T205 GB]

[QUOTE=calvindog;1775616]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Congrats on having clients, surprised me.

[Snapolit1]

I’m out hustling ... one day at a time.

[Snapolit1]

I’ve had friends in the financial world who have been cited for serious securities infractions and have carried it around their neck like an albatross for years. They haven’t simply walked down the street and gotten another job doing the same thing. They have continued their careers but believe me the leading brokerage houses were not rolling out the red carpet to offer them another position.


QUOTE=the 'stache;1775566]I just read this entire thing, start to finish. All I can say is, I'm so glad I didn't go into law. Studying legal history in college is one thing. I thoroughly enjoyed the hundreds of hours I spent researching precedent cases in Lexisnexis and Westlaw. And every single element of mock trial fascinated me. But the actual practice of law in the real world is so very different than the young idealist in me could have ever anticipated. Jeff, Larry et all, I don't know where you guys find the patience your chosen profession requires. Chapeau.

To briefly touch on the point that was discussed earlier, comparing the amount of corruption prevalent in our hobby to that within the legal and financial realms-there's really no comparison to be made, at all. There are going to be those who engage in nefarious activity in any large group of people. It's unavoidable. Money attracts the unscrupulous. But speaking as one who worked in the investments industry, and is familiar with the oversight and safeguards in place, the kind of underhanded behavior that runs rampant in our hobby could never exist there. Not on that scale.[/QUOTE]

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I’ve had friends in the financial world who have been cited for serious securities infractions and have carried it around their neck like an albatross for years. They haven’t simply walked down the street and gotten another job doing the same thing. They have continued their careers but believe me the leading brokerage houses were not rolling out the red carpet to offer them another position.

I am not overstating it when I say that, in my particular industry, ethics was everything. It's a pretty big part of the Series 7 exam. I only worked for one broker-dealer firm, but they hammered it home that our fiduciary responsibility was at the forefront of everything that we did, especially when I began preliminary studying for my 66 to work as an RIA (registered investment advisor). I held that responsibility inviolate.

The Financial Industry Regulatory Authority, or FINRA (which used to be called the NASD) tracks every single registered representative within the industry, and continues to provide information on these representatives even after they are no longer a part of the industry. Case in point, here's my profile on FINRA's Broker Check. Even though it's been more than eight years since I was forced to leave the industry when I went on disability, everything I did as a registered representative is still available to the public. The licenses I held, and when they were passed, the firm I worked at, and the exact period of time that I was licensed. If any kind of regulatory actions had been brought against me, or if I had been terminated for cause-that information would be there. If you screw up, the black mark on your record, as far as I know, never goes away.

[Mdmtx]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

But speaking as one who worked in the investments industry, and is familiar with the oversight and safeguards in place, the kind of underhanded behavior that runs rampant in our hobby could never exist there. Not on that scale.

I seem to remember a small little news story about a tiny investment firm. Something like Bernie Madoff Securities. You are correct. There could never be any large scale malfeasance in the investment world. Just tiny little deals like Bernie.


Mark Medlin.

[calvindog]

I just spoke to Leon about this. Yes, Rob was found responsible by a civil jury on the one surviving claim of Corey's. Yes that's bad. But spending seven figures in seven years to make 100K just can't feel like a win to me. The lawyers -- who I both know and are good guys and better lawyers -- won here.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I seem to remember a small little news story about a tiny investment firm. Something like Bernie Madoff Securities. You are correct. There could never be any large scale malfeasance in the investment world. Just tiny little deals like Bernie.


Mark Medlin.

Well, Bernie didn't walk down the street and get hired by another Wall Street shop, did he? Which appears to be the norm in this industry. Last I heard he was sitting in a federal prison until his day of death.

[Mdmtx]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Well, Bernie didn't walk down the street and get hired by another Wall Street shop, did he? Which appears to be the norm in this industry. Last I heard he was sitting in a federal prison until his day of death.

I didn’t defend or assess issue with the opinions regarding the op. My statement was merely addressing the responding posters statement about the “cleanliness” of the investment industry. IMO, anytime there is money at stake someone will be trying to angle the system.

Mark Medlin

[Peter_Spaeth]

I believe this is the "Fashion Course Trophy Ball."

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...ophy-baseball/

And this the "Origins of Baseball Letter."

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...ll-collection/

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I seem to remember a small little news story about a tiny investment firm. Something like Bernie Madoff Securities. You are correct. There could never be any large scale malfeasance in the investment world. Just tiny little deals like Bernie.


Mark Medlin.

I wasn't referring to large-scale malfeasance as exhibited by one perpetrator like Bernie Madoff. I was referring to the sheer number of individuals engaging in unscrupulous activity in our hobby as compared to professions like the law, or investments. My comment was in reference to, and in support of what Jeff said here:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Hank, I can assure you that there is a higher percentage of people in the hobby/business with criminal records than there are in the field of politics, law, religion, finance and medicine.

To wit:

From Merriam-Webster
Definition of LARGE-SCALE
1 : involving many people or things.

If you needed clarification, you could have asked, and I'd have happily expounded on the point I was making. Instead, you made an assumption, and decided to respond like a smart ass. Furthermore-are you f'g kidding me with this? Do you think it's even remotely possible a licensed stockbroker could not know about Bernie Madoff? What, did you think that just because I went on disability, I magically developed amnesia, forgetting about what I'd done for the prior three plus years, while simultaneously losing touch with my professional contacts/colleagues/friends still gainfully employed within the industry? Did you think because I was no longer actively working for a broker-dealer that I would stop investing in my own trading account(s), and no longer stay abreast of investment news?

Clearly there are examples of people in the legal profession, and in investments, that have operated in illegal activity on a grand scale. No system is fool proof. But it is infinitely more difficult to further this kind of activity in investments than it is in the baseball card hobby. As was previously referenced, there is no collective body overseeing auction houses, no form of recourse available outside of civil court. And that can take several years, as evidenced by the central discussion of this thread. That process has not even been completed. Broker-dealers, and their individual employees, are subject to oversight and fines, which can be substantial, and happen quickly. These fines can be levied against entities and individuals without them ever stepping foot in a courthouse. Check out the last episode of Billions on Showtime. Dudley Mafee is a trader for the Axe Capitol hedge fund. The SEC fined him $181,000 for a tier three penalty, termed "fraud, and reckless disregard of regulatory requirements." When Mafee's complicity was brought to the attention of the SEC, the fine was imposed within mere days.

[Leon]

Hey Bill
You had me until the bolded part below. You might want to ask Bill, Doug and some others about that? I will probably post a little more later but this caught my eye

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I wasn't referring to large-scale malfeasance as exhibited by one perpetrator like Bernie Madoff. I was referring to the sheer number of individuals engaging in unscrupulous activity in our hobby as compared to professions like the law, or investments. My comment was in reference to, and in support of what Jeff said here:

To wit:

From Merriam-Webster
Definition of LARGE-SCALE
1 : involving many people or things.

If you needed clarification, you could have asked, and I'd have happily expounded on the point I was making. Instead, you made an assumption, and decided to respond like a smart ass. Furthermore-are you f'g kidding me with this? Do you think it's even remotely possible a licensed stockbroker could not know about Bernie Madoff? What, did you think that just because I went on disability, I magically developed amnesia, forgetting about what I'd done for the prior three plus years, while simultaneously losing touch with my professional contacts/colleagues/friends still gainfully employed within the industry? Did you think because I was no longer actively working for a broker-dealer that I would stop investing in my own trading account(s), and no longer stay abreast of investment news?

Clearly there are examples of people in the legal profession, and in investments, that have operated in illegal activity on a grand scale. No system is fool proof. But it is infinitely more difficult to further this kind of activity in investments than it is in the baseball card hobby. As was previously referenced, there is no collective body overseeing auction houses, no form of recourse available outside of civil court. And that can take several years, as evidenced by the central discussion of this thread. That process has not even been completed. Broker-dealers, and their individual employees, are subject to oversight and fines, which can be substantial, and happen quickly. These fines can be levied against entities and individuals without them ever stepping foot in a courthouse. Check out the last episode of Billions on Showtime. Dudley Mafee is a trader for the Axe Capitol hedge fund. The SEC fined him $181,000 for a tier three penalty, termed "fraud, and reckless disregard of regulatory requirements." When Mafee's complicity was brought to the attention of the SEC, the fine was imposed within mere days.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey Bill
You had me until the bolded part below. You might want to ask Bill, Doug and some others about that? I will probably post a little more later but this caught my eye

I was a bit steamed when I wrote that, Leon. And my apologies for the F bomb.

What other forms of recourse are there besides civil court? Can an auction house and a complainant enter into binding arbitration?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I was a bit steamed when I wrote that, Leon. And my apologies for the F bomb.

What other forms of recourse are there besides civil court? Can an auction house and a complainant enter into binding arbitration?

Bill, sorry I missed your question, private parties can certainly agree to arbitrate almost any dispute, and I see no reason they could not have done so here. However, it's frequently the case that one side, or both, perceives that they will have the advantage with a jury. Parties can also enlist a mediator to help them try to resolve their dispute, and that's popular these days in certain types of cases and sometimes useful. Certainly both alternatives are more cost-effective.

[oldjudge]

I thought the suit was about Corey recovering what he paid for some trophy balls which were alleged to have been painted with a type of paint that did not exist in the 19th century? Am I wrong, or was this part of the suit dismissed?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bill, sorry I missed your question, private parties can certainly agree to arbitrate almost any dispute, and I see no reason they could not have done so here. However, it's frequently the case that one side, or both, perceives that they will have the advantage with a jury. Parties can also enlist a mediator to help them try to resolve their dispute, and that's popular these days in certain types of cases and sometimes useful. Certainly both alternatives are more cost-effective.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't have a problem mediating but I will never voluntarily participate in an arbitration. Yes, I am sure that the fees in this case were high. But that can also occur in a long, ugly arbitration. I have a friend who is arguing an appeal of an arbitration award he won in a business dispute at the 10th Circuit next week. Its been going on for years. His fees are huge, as are the fees of the other side's attorney, I'm sure. Plus, you also get to pay the fees of the arbitrator or the arbitration panel if there is more than one. I also think that process is skewed in favor of those who participate in arbitration frequently. No thanks. I'll take a jury any day.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bill, sorry I missed your question, private parties can certainly agree to arbitrate almost any dispute, and I see no reason they could not have done so here. However, it's frequently the case that one side, or both, perceives that they will have the advantage with a jury. Parties can also enlist a mediator to help them try to resolve their dispute, and that's popular these days in certain types of cases and sometimes useful. Certainly both alternatives are more cost-effective.

Thanks, Peter. I guess, in the same position, I'd go for a jury trial, even though it might drag on for years. In arbitration, if you're not happy with the resolution, you're stuck, as there's no appeal.

Back to the topic at hand.

[Mdmtx]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I wasn't referring to large-scale malfeasance as exhibited by one perpetrator like Bernie Madoff. I was referring to the sheer number of individuals engaging in unscrupulous activity in our hobby as compared to professions like the law, or investments. My comment was in reference to, and in support of what Jeff said here:
Bui


To wit:

From Merriam-Webster
Definition of LARGE-SCALE
1 : involving many people or things.

If you needed clarification, you could have asked, and I'd have happily expounded on the point I was making. Instead, you made an assumption, and decided to respond like a smart ass. Furthermore-are you fucking kidding me with this? Do you think it's even remotely possible a licensed stockbroker could not know about Bernie Madoff? What, did you think that just because I went on disability, I magically developed amnesia, forgetting about what I'd done for the prior three plus years, while simultaneously losing touch with my professional contacts/colleagues/friends still gainfully employed within the industry? Did you think because I was no longer actively working for a broker-dealer that I would stop investing in my own trading account(s), and no longer stay abreast of investment news?

Clearly there are examples of people in the legal profession, and in investments, that have operated in illegal activity on a grand scale. No system is fool proof. But it is infinitely more difficult to further this kind of activity in investments than it is in the baseball card hobby. As was previously referenced, there is no collective body overseeing auction houses, no form of recourse available outside of civil court. And that can take several years, as evidenced by the central discussion of this thread. That process has not even been completed. Broker-dealers, and their individual employees, are subject to oversight and fines, which can be substantial, and happen quickly. These fines can be levied against entities and individuals without them ever stepping foot in a courthouse. Check out the last episode of Billions on Showtime. Dudley Mafee is a trader for the Axe Capitol hedge fund. The SEC fined him $181,000 for a tier three penalty, termed "fraud, and reckless disregard of regulatory requirements." When Mafee's complicity was brought to the attention of the SEC, the fine was imposed within mere days.

I didn't make it personal. You did. I merely pointed out that money corrupts and contrary to your assertion, no industry is safe from those hell bent on gaming the system. Call me smartass if you want, I just pointed out facts! I am surprised that all the stock brokers knew, yet he rang the bell and was held in esteem.

Mark Medlin

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/libor-scandal.asp

https://www.sec.gov/news/press/2008/2008-32.htm

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I didn't make it personal. You did.

Because clearly this....

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I seem to remember a small little news story about a tiny investment firm. Something like Bernie Madoff Securities. You are correct. There could never be any large scale malfeasance in the investment world. Just tiny little deals like Bernie.

didn't sound at all condescending.

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I merely pointed out that money corrupts and contrary to your assertion, no industry is safe from those hell bent on gaming the system.

Where did I assess that any industry was safe from fraud?

Here's part of my first post:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

There are going to be those who engage in nefarious activity in any large group of people. It's unavoidable. Money attracts the unscrupulous.

Clearly, people are not going to engage in fraudulent activity if the system is foolproof, are they? That's tantamount to walking into prison, opening a cell door, and closing it behind them.

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

Call me smartass if you want, I just pointed out facts!

If it's your belief that I stated, in essence, "fraud on a large scale was an impossibility in the investments industry", statement of fact to repudiate my assertion would look something like this:

"Bernie Madoff's ponzi scheme cost his investors an estimated $50 billion."

You didn't do that. So, don't try to demure now, ok?

[Peter_Spaeth]

We sure seem to have strayed from the jury verdict, if we ever were there at all.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We sure seem to have strayed from the jury verdict, if we ever were there at all.

That's partly on me, Peter.

I think the jury verdict is interesting, but, as you alluded to, the whole thing is not yet set in stone, because there could be further motions submitted, or an appeal.

As things stand currently, I'd be more likely to discuss the verdict in depth if I could pour over the court transcript.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

comparing the amount of corruption prevalent in our hobby to that within the legal and financial realms-there's really no comparison to be made, at all. There are going to be those who engage in nefarious activity in any large group of people. It's unavoidable. Money attracts the unscrupulous. But speaking as one who worked in the investments industry, and is familiar with the oversight and safeguards in place, the kind of underhanded behavior that runs rampant in our hobby could never exist there. Not on that scale.