|
#501
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference....Reflections, etc..... A Tale of Two Unique UZIT cards' "finds"
A Net54er emailed me. Telling me that the Herzog / UZIT card which I claim to be unique is not so. He says that 2 different Pop Reports (SGC and PSA) list this card graded.
What he does not realize is that both these Pop Reports reflect the same card. I sold this Herzog card (graded SGC 45) to David Hall (for his T206 Master set) two years ago. David is a PSA guy, so he had this card re-graded. David lost 1/2 a point in the process as PSA graded it a "3". The Net54er appreciated my explanation. Anyhow, this is perfect example of why one cannot always absolutely trust Pop Report data to be an accurate representation of a rare card such as this Herzog. TED Z . |
#502
|
|||
|
|||
Vertical OM miscut w/ 2 players
Hi all—
Would love assistance with some detective work: According to the centennnial edition of Inside T206, the only cards known to be vertically miscut AND show 2 different players are from P350-only sheets. It was a result of the Pirates winning the 1909 WS and being long-printed with some sharing vertical rows with other players. However, I recently acquired an Old Mill back Doc Casey that is vertically miscut, and features a different player at the bottom of the card. 1) Has anyone seen an OM miscut like this? 2) What could be the explanation for the vertical positioning of the different cards like this? Were players alternating vertically in OM? 3) Who might the player with the dark blue background be? Thanks in advance for your input and expertise. Looking forward to hearing theories. Justin Last edited by Silverskulls; 09-08-2018 at 04:37 PM. |
#503
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Hi Justin #1....I have seen quite a number of mis-cuts like your Casey (but not Casey....seen other T206's). #2....Multiple printings (vertically) of the same T206 subject was commonplace. Followed by a different subject (above and below) that subject. This process was independent of the T206 back. Since the fronts were printed first. #3...." Who might the player with the dark blue background be? " Casey is a 350-only Series subject, and many T206's in this series have dark blue backgrounds. It's anyone's guess which T206 is below Casey. TED Z . |
#504
|
|||
|
|||
Thank you, Ted! Very helpful. The string is a treasure trove.
|
#505
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I might have missed a couple of the dark blue subjects from print group 2 but if you eliminate the ones that haven't been confirmed or are Old Mill no prints you're left with these candidates. Batch Bender (with trees) Brain Cree Knight (with bat) Krause (portrait) Livingstone Quillen Bender and Cree have different back patterns than Casey and there is a Livingstone two name PD350 with Maloney at the top so if you eliminate these three as strong candidates you're left with these five. Batch Brain Knight (with bat) Krause (portrait) Quillen If you have these five in hand to compare with your Casey you might be able to narrow it down further. Very nice card congratulations on picking it up! Last edited by Pat R; 09-09-2018 at 01:20 PM. |
#506
|
||||
|
||||
Like I need an excuse but the Nascar race was rained out and it's
cool and overcast here so I was bored. The colors vary from card to card and can also vary on the same card with different scans. These are all Old Mill's and I didn't resize the scans because I didn't want to distort the colors. Casey - Batch.jpg Casey - Brain.jpg Casey - Knight.jpg Casey - Krause.jpg Casey - Quillen.jpg My choice would be Knight or Krause slightly favoring Knight. |
#507
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference....Reflections, etc..... A Tale of Two Unique UZIT cards' "finds"
Justin
Also, either one of these Hal Chase cards could have been the card below your Casey card. These cards were initially printed on an early 350-only series sheet (circa Spring 1910). TED Z . |
#508
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Old Mill's with Blue backgrounds and any of them could have been the card below Casey. I wouldn't consider the Chase blue portrait a strong candidate though since there's a two name PD350 of Chase with Zimmerman on top. |
#509
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...-only-example/ |
#510
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference....Reflections, etc..... A Tale of Two Unique UZIT cards' "finds"
Quote:
Ronnie.....I stated my timeline wrong. .....First, I'll reprise my story which I posted in Post #499 of how I acquired this Herzog card. " 1st Tale...... My old-time friend, Ralph, discovered the Herzog UZIT in a collection he acquired (circa 1990's) in his hometown in the Great Smoky Mountain area of North Carolina. He knew what kind of a "nut" I am about T206's with scarce backs, so we did a nice trade. But, he did not know how scarce this Herzog card was, until I subsequently informed him that it was the only known Herzog with a UZIT back. So we arrived at an additional cash amount (to him) to complete the deal. As of this date, this card remains unique. " At the 2013 National, David Hall was at my booth, and asked me "what kind of goodies do you have for me this time ? " I offered him this Herzog / UZIT card (which I knew he didn't have in his Master set. He recommended that I consign it to the Fall REA Auction. Of course he was the winning bidder. Compare the SGC serial number of the above card on display with the one in REA....THEY ARE THE SAME. I hope you get it now......as of this date, this Herzog card is still the only known one with a UZIT back. Sorry if I confused you, I got my years mixed up. Time is moving too fast for me. So it was 5 years ago (not 2 years ago) when David Hall acquired this card from me. TED Z . |
#511
|
|||
|
|||
thanks ted. i get it now.
david hall bought the uzit herzog in REA. not from you. thanks for clearing that up. Last edited by RedsFan1941; 09-09-2018 at 05:45 PM. |
#512
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference....Reflections, etc..... A Tale of Two Unique UZIT cards' "finds"
Quote:
Ronnie I offered the card to David Hall, and gave him a price which I thought was very fair, considering this T206 was one of a kind. David was being fair to me by suggesting that I consign it to REA. In order to see what value this card would rise to. Both of us knew from the start of this potential transaction that he would win this card. Therefore, in effect, he bought it from me. I have sold him many T206's over the years. So, I don't understand what you are driving at ? ? TED Z . |
#513
|
|||
|
|||
ok ted
|
#514
|
|||
|
|||
Thanks guys so much for all of your expertise. I'll continuing digging and see if I can get closer to confirming the blue card showing at the bottom, or figuring out what the card above Casey might be.
Justin Quote:
|
#515
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference....Reflections.....291-card collection with DRUM, LENOX, and T205 Cobb
* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *
. . I'll continue on this topic with my most recent purchase. A little over 5 years ago I acquired 291 tobacco cards. This collection comprised of 274 - T206's and 17 - T205's. The T206 group of cards had a good mixture of stars in Vg-Ex to Ex condition. And, an eclectic group of rare backs. Especially, these two "goodies"...… . . The T205 group of 17 cards comprised of a couple of Minor Leaguer's, SP cards (Rowan, Vaughn, etc.), some commons and one star...... TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 09-20-2018 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#516
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *
My title for this post is taken from a very good 1973 Baseball movie featuring Michael Moriarity and Robert De Niro. Check it out if you have not seen it. Back in the 1970's and 1980's, DRUM cards (of both T206's and T205's) were considered the scarcest tobacco cards. Of course, this isn't true anymore. The T206 BROAD LEAF 460 and the T205 HINDU (respectively) are tougher cards to find than DRUM. New DRUM cards continue to come out of the wood-work. The most significant find in recent years was Ron Oser's which included 51 - DRUM cards. DRUM cards were printed on subjects in the 350-only series and on subjects in the 350/460 series. The DRUM cards were issued circa Summer/Fall of 1910. FYI the confirmed T206 DRUM cards (as of today) are listed here...... . DRUM backs confirmed....total = 159 subjects 350-only subjects.................... 123 subjects Abstein Adkins Arellanes Armbruster Atz Barbeau Jack Barry (A's) Barry (Milwaukee) Batch Becker Bescher (portrait) Bliss Burke Bush Carr Casey Cassidy Chance (yellow portrait) Charles Clark Cobb (red portrait) Congalton Davidson Delehanty (Louisville) Dessau Dineen Donovan (throwing) Dorner Downey (fielding) Downs Egan Engle Evers (Chicago-yellow sky) Fiene (portrait) Fiene (throwing) Fletcher Freeman Gasper Graham (Boston) Hallman Hartsel Hayden Hinchman (Toledo) Hoblitzell Hofman Danny Hoffman (St Louis) Howell (portrait) Huggins (Portrait) Huggins (hands at mouth) Hunter Jackson Kelley Killian (portrait) Kisinger Knabe Knight (portrait) Knight (bat) Krause (portrait) Krause (pitching) Kroh LaPorte Lattimore Lavender Lennox Livingstone Maddox Maloney Marshall McAleese McBride McGann Matt McIntyre (Detroit) Milan Milligan Mitchell (Cincinnati) Mitchell (Toronto) Moeller Moran (Chicago) Moran (Providence) Moriarty Mullen (portrait) Murray (bat) Myers (batting) Myers (fielding) Nattress Oakes Perring Pfeister (seated) Phelps Phillippe Pickering Purtell Quinn Randall Raymond Rhoades (hands at chest) Rhodes Ritter Rudolph Schirm Schlafly Schmidt (portrait) Schreck Scott Slagle Smith (Buffalo) Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Starr Stephens Strang Street (portrait) Summers Sweeney (Boston) Jess Tannehill (Wash.) Taylor Thielman Thomas Titus Unglaub Warhop Willett (bat) Zimmerman 350/460 subjects..........................36 cards Baker Bender (no trees) Burch (fielding) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Doolan (bat) Downey (bat) Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Griffith (bat) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Jordan (bat) Konetchy (glove low) Lake (St Louis-no ball) Leifield (bat) Magee (bat) Manning (pitching) McQuillan (bat) Murphy (bat) Nichols (bat) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (throwing) Seymour (throwing) Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Sweeney (New York) Wagner (bat on right shoulder) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (bat) Wiltse (pitching) OK guys, Your turn to show-n-tell us of your T206 DRUM cards. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 11-06-2019 at 08:58 AM. Reason: Added 9 confirmed DRUM cards to 350-only Series list |
#517
|
||||
|
||||
|
#518
|
||||
|
||||
LaPorte
Drums are hard to find. Here is a LaPorte
__________________
Want to buy or trade for T213-1 (Bob Rhoades) Other Louisiana issues T216 T215 T214 T213 Etc |
#519
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Hey Sean
Thanks for posting your Street / DRUM. And, did you know that Street is one of the few T206 dudes which has a 350-only card with a DRUM back, and a 350/460 card with a DRUM back ? TED Z . |
#521
|
|||
|
|||
Drum
Drum Back
|
#522
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Hi Rob Thanks for posting your LaPorte / DRUM card. I think there is only one other one known. This DRUM is indeed very rare. TED Z . |
#523
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Although, this thread pertains to T206 cards, there are some aspects of the printing of the T205 set that are similar to that of the T206 set. For example....the A-B-C-DRUM pattern
found in both of these tobacco sets. Therefore, feel free to also post T205 DRUM cards. Of the 208 different subjects in the T205 set, only 32 of them were printed with DRUM backs. Refer to this thread for more info regarding the A-B-C-DRUM connection: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...s+HINDU&page=2 Listed here are the 32 subjects which were theoretically printed with DRUM backs. I say "theoretically", since 5 subjects have not yet been confirmed. I expect that these 5 subjects will eventually be discovered with DRUM backs. . Scan courtesy of Mark Macrae. T205 DRUM checklist......32 subjects James Austin John Bates Beals Becker ** George Bell William Bergen Russell Blackburne Albert Bridwell Mordecai Brown Harold Chase (border on shirt) Frank Corridon Thomas Downey Louis Evans George Graham (blue signature) Buck Herzog ** Richard Hoblitzell Miller Huggins ** Jack Knight A. Latham Thomas Leach John Lobert ** Briscoe Lord Patrick Moran Frederick Olmstead George Paskert Fred Payne Edward Phelps John Quinn Lewis Richie David Shean George Stone Zach Wheat ** Harry Wolter ** denotes not yet confirmed with DRUM (but have been confirmed with AB - BL - CY) So if you have them, why not post them......T205 DRUM's or T206 DRUM's. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 10-07-2018 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#524
|
||||
|
||||
Hi Ted, I did not know that. I'm glad that I'm not doing a Street portrait back run.
|
#525
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
John P.
Nice DRUM and UZIT Wiltse cards. Thanks for showing them. TED Z . |
#526
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Here' my first T206 DRUM....acquired in the early 1980's. It maybe the only DRUM card of Moeller.
. TED Z . |
#527
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Here's a T205 Drum from my Yankees collection.
. T205 DRUM's or T206 DRUM's......if you have them, why not show them. TED Z . |
#528
|
||||
|
||||
FYI - Portions of “Bang The Drum Slowly” were filmed on location in Clearwater, Florida. Ted, I’m sorry that I do not have anything to bang for your thread.
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER. GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES 274/1000 Monster Number Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed from 2012 to 2024. Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served. If you want fries with your order, just speak up. Thank you all. Now nearly PQ. |
#529
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Quote:
Great to hear from you. Thanks for chiming in regarding this movie. It's a somewhat unheralded BB movie. Now, without revealing the story, Michael Moriarty is the ace Pitcher, Robert De Niro is his battery mate, and Vincent Gardenia is their team's Manager. Really good performances by all three actors. Di Niro was not a well-known actor prior to this movie....and, Vincent Gardenia was nominated for the Best Supporting actor Award in his role in it. Take care, my friend. TED Z . |
#530
|
|||
|
|||
Ted- Epic thread, great work.
It's kinda eye-popping how many deals I've done with people here...several trades illustrated in this thread alone- Drums, Bl 460's, Uzits, Lenox's, etc...if I would've kept all the cards I've owned...But alas, I really do enjoy trading. Keeps things fun. |
#531
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Thanks Mike And yes, you and I have done some nice T206 deals, dating back to the ole Fort Washington Philly Show days. I will be setting up again at the Philly Show in Oaks, PA in December. Hope to see you there. TED Z . |
#532
|
|||
|
|||
One of the many great cards in my hot little hands at one time but, sadly, no longer is a Drum backed T206 Griffith batting PSA 7, one of the prides of my collection at the time and consigned to Kevin Struss when he was at Mastro.
Ted, I guess it had to be a 350/460 series according to your chart. |
#533
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I found an ad that I think might be important on the timeline of the printing of southern league series with Old Mill backs. The ad was in an August 14 1909 Tampa paper. With the cards already packaged and in transit in mid August I would think the printing would have had to have started in late spring or early summer. img650.jpg Last edited by Pat R; 10-11-2018 at 12:12 PM. |
#534
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Quote:
Hi John Your guess is yes......Griffith (with bat) is a 350/460 series subject. Take care, my friend. TED Z . |
#535
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Listed in Post #516 here are all the T206's which have been confirmed (to date) with the DRUM back.
The following lists all the possible T206's which have yet to be found with the DRUM back. 350-only series (67 subjects not yet confirmed) Abbott Anderson Arndt Beck Beckley Bender (trees) Blackburne Brain Brashear Bresnahan (bat) Burchell Burns Butler Campbell Carrigan Chappelle Chase (portrait-blue) Chase (dark cap) Clancy Clymer Collins (A's) Cravath Cree Doolan (fielding) Dubuc Dunn (Baltimore) Dunn (Brooklyn) Dygert Easterly Ferguson Flanagan Fromme Ganzel Bill Graham (St Louis) Grimshaw Hall Hannifan Hoffman (Providence) Howard (Chicago) Hulswitt Jones (Detroit) Kruger Lord Malarkey Marquard (portrait) Mathewson (dark cap) McCormick Mc Elveen McGinley McGinnity McGlynn Merritt Miller (Pittsburg) Oberlin O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Phelan Poland Quillen Sharpe Shaw (Providence) Stanage Jack White (Buffalo) Wilson Wright Irv Young 350/460 series (1 subject not yet confirmed) Mullin (batting) If any of you have any of these guys listed above with a DRUM back, PLEASE show-n-tell us about it here. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 11-06-2019 at 09:08 AM. Reason: Updated list. |
#536
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Switching back to T205 DRUM's.....after completing my 209-card T205 set [included the Hoblitzell (no stats)],
I continued my T205 "adventure" by forming these A-B-C-D sub-sets. Here is an example of my favorite...…. . I've been searching for the Huggins / DRUM for quite a number of years. Any help here is greatly appreciated. T205 DRUM's or T206 DRUM's......if you have them, why not post them here. TED Z . |
#537
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis variations exist ?
* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *
As we all know, the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs. This is because the POLAR BEAR timeline coincided with the trades of these two guys from their former New York teams. Both of them started the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern (International) League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to his hometown team, Toronto. American Lithographic printed 250 different subjects with the POLAR BEAR backs....which include subjects in the 350-only series, the 350/460 series and the 460-only series. As rare as these 2 cards seem to be, you may be surprised to find out how many of them are in circulation. I have a fair estimate of how many Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations are currently in circulation. But, before I give you my number, let us hear your guesstimate ? Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards (1912) TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 07-11-2019 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Correct typo. |
#538
|
||||
|
||||
Who knows how many are still out there ? I'll guessimate around 850 each.
__________________
Wanted : Detroit Baseball Cards and Memorabilia ( from 19th Century Detroit Wolverines to Detroit Tigers Ty Cobb to Al Kaline). Last edited by insidethewrapper; 10-18-2018 at 09:09 PM. Reason: sp |
#539
|
|||
|
|||
About 400 or so each
|
#540
|
|||
|
|||
Guessing there are roughly 350 copies of each of each card. By the way, nice Demmitt!
|
#541
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference...Reflections...Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?
Interesting numbers, guys. Continue posting your guesstimates.
Thanks, TED Z . |
#542
|
||||
|
||||
About 500 each
|
#543
|
|||
|
|||
I'll guess about 200-250 on O'Hara and 250-300 on Demmitt
|
#544
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis variations exist ?
Thanks guys for all you guesstimates. Let's see if we can a few more inputs ?
Incidentally, if you are searching for an affordable Demmitt (St Louis) card, you should consider acquiring the T213-2 Demmitt. The image is the same, and so what if the name of the team differs, and it's caption is colored blue There is usually one (or 2) for sale on ebay for about $100. Think of the $$$$ you save, allowing you to buy many more T206's. . TED Z . |
#545
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference...Reflections...Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?
The average number of the guesstimate inputs = 470 cards of each of these St Louis variations. One input, however, is somewhat
high and skews this average number more than I would guess. Anyway, my number is a little more than just a guess, as have been tracking the St Louis versions of Demmitt and O'Hara for years. Therefore, my "sort of educated" guess is = 350 +/- 50 cards each. So, we are all basically in the same "ballpark" Thanks for your responses. TED Z . |
#546
|
||||
|
||||
Thank you for your wealth of knowledge Ted.
|
#547
|
||||
|
||||
Many collectors etc. know nothing about the grading services, and about 300 of each of these cards have already been graded. Wonder how many have not been graded ? Most cards in general have not been graded.
__________________
Wanted : Detroit Baseball Cards and Memorabilia ( from 19th Century Detroit Wolverines to Detroit Tigers Ty Cobb to Al Kaline). Last edited by insidethewrapper; 10-22-2018 at 08:28 AM. Reason: sp |
#548
|
|||
|
|||
How many of the average polar bear common are out there?
Curious how this estimate lines up against the average polar bear population. |
#549
|
|||
|
|||
T206 Reference...Reflections...Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?
Quote:
There are 250 different subjects in the T206 set printed with POLAR BEAR (PB) backs. American Litho (ALC) started their 1st press runs of the PB cards in the 350-only series (circa Summer 1910). There are 138 subjects in the 350-only series confirmed with PB backs. The population range of these PB cards is 50 - 100. Subsequently, ALC printed the PB backs on cards in the 350/460 series. In this series, 64 subjects are confirmed with PB backs. The population range of these PB cards is 100 - 300. And finally, the PB backs were printed on all 46 subjects in the 460-only series. The population range of these PB cards is 25 - 75. Given the above data, my theory is that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis cards) were printed during the 350/460 press run. TED Z . |
#550
|
|||
|
|||
Do you think the Demmitt/O'hara are notably any more rare than the average PB common? How would you rate it's survivor population vs the average PB common.
Much lower Slightly lower Almost equal Equal |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Consolidated access to the 15 - T206 T-brand (front/back) surveys....UPDATED | tedzan | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 58 | 03-13-2015 02:44 PM |
Red Cobb survey of all its 30 backs....post your inputs ? | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 176 | 07-13-2009 03:17 PM |
A survey about more surveys | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 22 | 05-13-2007 02:50 PM |
POLAR BEAR subset....need your Inputs ? | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 50 | 04-06-2007 07:11 PM |
T206 Wagner-Theory | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 24 | 03-20-2007 08:33 PM |