Brent/PWCC interview on recent controversies

[swarmee]

Wow, it took until 10:33 to hear "We're not a professional grading company."
"We have to accept the grading companies and their assessment of it." Just like the Green PMG Jordan, huh?

So yes, he clarifies that bad erasures are alterations, but good erasures are not.
"That's generally how people feel about it." I have not seen that to be the case with people who are willing to give their opinions on message boards, Leon's preference notwithstanding. Again, if the card is found with writing on the card after it is sold, it's now altered. If there was no evidence of the card with writing on it, it's conserved. Geesh.

"I have never seen the N-7 alteration applied to a single card in 20 years. So PSA has it; I've never seen it used, ever." He agrees that if there was evidence a stain was removed, it should be considered altered. So again, how does the 1951 Bowman Willie Mays apply? How about the alterations that reappear over time because of using solvents to remove stains from cards? "This language [PSA's standards] is 30 years old." How about the WWG DiMaggio that PSA decertified?

Interviewer is definitely giving Brent the home court advantage. Barely talks, lines up softballs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If it ever came to it, Brent would not do well on cross-examination, IMO.

Personally, as much as I hate most forms of alteration, I really don't care about erasing a light pencil mark with a high quality eraser. There, I gave my opinion.

[steve B]

Erasures are to me, one of those in between things. done properly, I don't see much problem, but do wish they were noted somehow. Done poorly, well, like anything done poorly it's a problem.

This card was one of two I asked SGC about the grade a few years ago when they were at the local show. It seemed nicer than the average 40 to me.

What the guy there spotted pretty quickly was an erased number on the back.
I've owned the card at least since 1980, it was the first nice T206 I bought. Since then, I've moved it between pages, different holders etc probably 5-6 times, looked at it a fair amount, and never noticed the erasure.
SGC did, and apparently didn't consider it anything that would prevent a number grade. It just didn't get a higher number grade because of the erasure.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

How can you redefine a word? Conserve means prevent further damage. It in no way has EVER meant in any hobby, collectible field or dictionary - improving appearance for appearance's sake. Even cleaning an old master isn't solely to make it look better, the accumulated grime can destroy the painting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

How can you redefine a word? Conserve means prevent further damage. It in no way has EVER meant in any hobby, collectible field or dictionary - improving appearance for appearance's sake. Even cleaning an old master isn't solely to make it look better, the accumulated grime can destroy the painting.

The same way he can call a baseball card an asset. Clueless. Apparently he needs to consult not only with better lawyers, but with a PR firm that can speak English.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The same way he can call a baseball card an asset. Clueless. Apparently he needs to consult not only with better lawyers, but with a PR firm that can speak English.

Peter-Not sure why you have a problem with cards being called assets. An asset is defined as a useful or valuable thing. Certainly most cards have value and as such they can be considered assets. I understand that to some it is more palatable to spend money on assets than on cards, but at the end of the day it’s a distinction without a difference. There are things that Brent says that I disagree with, but I have no problem with this choice of words.

[drcy]

#1 Conservation is alteration
#2 He mentions the art and comic world, but I don't think he knows what is conservation. He's making up his own definition that doesn't exist in those worlds.
#3 Conservation is supposed to be disclosed at sale and should make it so a card can only graded as AUTH (according to standard PSA, SGC, Beckett rules).

[glchen]

Wow, one hour long video. Who has time to watch this entire thing?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter-Not sure why you have a problem with cards being called assets. An asset is defined as a useful or valuable thing. Certainly most cards have value and as such they can be considered assets. I understand that to some it is more palatable to spend money on assets than on cards, but at the end of the day it’s a distinction without a difference. There are things that Brent says that I disagree with, but I have no problem with this choice of words.

It's indicative of a whole mindset that I don't like. I wouldn't say to you, Jay, nice asset, or Jay, could you post a scan of that asset. It's a generic term that sounds stupid in this context, IMO.

[Buythatcard]

My only suggestion is to start buying at the smaller eBay companies like it use to be.

Before all of these big Sellers came along, there were rarely any controversies. You were able to get cards at decent prices and never had to worry about shilling.

These so called big companies think that they make all the rules around here. BS.

We can then get back to talking about baseball cards. I use to come to this Forum to learn about cards. Now all I hear about is the shadiness of the larger Sellers.

[Exhibitman]

I ran out of patience about ten minutes in. What nonsense. Keep digging that hole, pal.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's like the old joke of how do you know a lawyer is lying.

Man, people here used to defend him by the droves, where are they?

I remember when I use to get laughed at when I just spoke about PWCC's inconsistent, all over the map, shipping fees plus the price they charged for shipping. Looking back, all that seems so trivial now based on what has come to light but for me it was another sign of a less than professionally run business. Throw in a few questionable card sales and some stories I have read here about their shilling policies, etc, and I haven't looked back since other than to watch some of their auctions. I guess for some, it seems, they needed more than that but I'm sure they're regretting that decision now?

Originally Posted by glchen

Wow, one hour long video. Who has time to watch this entire thing?

I noticed this vid was posted yesterday on my phone while I was at my trailer. I was hoping to watch it today on my home computer but when I realized it was over an hour long, just reading the comments here and below the vid was enough for me to realize it is nothing more than a damage control vid.

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

My only suggestion is to start buying at the smaller eBay companies like it use to be.

Before all of these big Sellers came along, there were rarely any controversies. You were able to get cards at decent prices and never had to worry about shilling.

These so called big companies think that they make all the rules around here. BS.

We can then get back to talking about baseball cards. I use to come to this Forum to learn about cards. Now all I hear about is the shadiness of the larger Sellers.

Same. When I joined the site and started collecting back in 2016, I was real happy to see these card forums actually existed.
As time went on I quickly learned how ugly this hobby was, and was really surprised, the ugliest parts of it came from those who were supposedly started to protect/endorse the hobby.
The things I've learned and seen in my short time here from PSA, PWCC and some auction houses, who are allowed to "up bid" their own auctions, made me quickly learn this is no longer kids stuff anymore.

The biggest eye opener's are from those who defend these places and scoff at those who question their business practices. I honestly don't understand, nor will ever understand, anyone who continues to do business with these places. It just boggles my mind.

[swarmee]

New information for once: "All the grading card companies have seen our Marketplace Tenets. They have read our stance on conservation vs. alteration. And all that was done in the weeks to months before us actually posting it." He doesn't say that any of them have ratified those or even given their opinions on it. Radio silence sure is saying something to me; not to him I guess.

1952 Mantle discussion (18 min): "I've only seen it [the before picture] once." "Before and after pictures are not evidence." Hah. WTTE of "Physical evidence has to be on the card, or first hand statement from the submitter has to occur in order to disclose the conservation." Well, this is not really true.

"Conservation is not something that has to be disclosed." They will not stop an auction if a card for sale shows "conservation" in a before picture. Just keep digging, Brent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

New information for once: "All the grading card companies have seen our Marketplace Tenets. They have read our stance on conservation vs. alteration. And all that was done in the weeks to months before us actually posting it." He doesn't say that any of them have ratified those or even given their opinions on it. Radio silence sure is saying something to me; not to him I guess.

1952 Mantle discussion (18 min): "I've only seen it [the before picture] once." "Before and after pictures are not evidence." Hah. WTTE of "Physical evidence has to be on the card, or first hand statement from the submitter has to occur in order to disclose the conservation." Well, this is not really true.

"Conservation is not something that has to be disclosed." They will not stop an auction if a card for sale shows "conservation" in a before picture. Just keep digging, Brent.

It's like the old joke of how do you know a lawyer is lying.

Man, people here used to defend him by the droves, where are they?

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by swarmee

1952 Mantle discussion (18 min): "Before and after pictures are not evidence."

What?! Did he really say that? I didn't get that far into the video.

ETA: So I guess all those autographed T206s that were shown with before and after pictures would still be good in his world then?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

What?! Did he really say that? I didn't get that far into the video.

ETA: So I guess all those autographed T206s that were shown with before and after pictures would still be good in his world then?

Right, as long as his clinic of doctors don't get caught by PSA, it would be considered Conserved.

[chalupacollects]

[QUOTE=swarmee;1879322]New information for once: "All the grading card companies have seen our Marketplace Tenets. They have read our stance on conservation vs. alteration. And all that was done in the weeks to months before us actually posting it." He doesn't say that any of them have ratified those or even given their opinions on it. Radio silence sure is saying something to me; not to him I guess.

So maybe the TPG's have read his "Tenets." Sounds like he has the gall to consider himself "the authority" that his word shall be beholden as sportscard gospel and how "assets" should be sold.

Who gave him the title? Is he the new "Lord of Sportscards?" In my opinion he seems to have a high opinion of himself...

[frankbmd]

[QUOTE=chalupacollects;1879434]

Originally Posted by swarmee

New information for once: "All the grading card companies have seen our Marketplace Tenets. They have read our stance on conservation vs. alteration. And all that was done in the weeks to months before us actually posting it." He doesn't say that any of them have ratified those or even given their opinions on it. Radio silence sure is saying something to me; not to him I guess.

Originally Posted by swarmee

So maybe the TPG's have read his "Tenets." Sounds like he has the gall to consider himself "the authority" that his word shall be beholden as sportscard gospel and how "assets" should be sold.

Who gave him the title? Is he the new "Lord of Sportscards?" In my opinion he seems to have a high opinion of himself...

Lake Oswego has always been the center of the sports card universe.

[glynparson]

I don't think i have shaken my head so often and said you are full of shit more times in one hour in my entire life. I can not disagree more than i do with 99% of what he says. I had used them several times to sell for me. i don't think i will ever again. i just can't in good conscience despite the strong prices i received and the relatively quick payments. i am in this for the long haul and i don't think what he is trying to do is helpful for the hobby. I'll stick with REA and a couple other reputable sellers to consign with.

[slipk1068]

Most of you folks are a lot more patient than I am. I made it to the 8 minute mark before the steam was shooting out my ears, and I had to shut it down.

[swarmee]

I listened to most of the rest of it at work this morning. I was glad he owned up to being a fence ("front" in his terms) for bad actors, but it seems he won't out anyone who confesses, apologizes, and reimburses those who were scammed. He believes all of these criminals are worthy of staying in the hobby as long as they promise not to do it again...

He says that he is working to identify "conservators" who he can point people to in order to improve the look of their cards, and anyone who thinks this is alteration just needs to "mature" like other markets. He didn't say if Dick Towle was on that list.

Things I do agree with that he said: the bad actor information needs to be freely shared between auction houses and grading companies so this doesn't become a case of "pass the trash." He referenced the plan that blowout member Superdan is working to catalog all these altered cards onto a website so that the info doesn't get lost to internet losses.

I disagree that the six to eight already outed by Blowout are redeemable in the hobby, and I would love for Brent to turn over his information on their consignments to law enforcement.

[calvindog]

He's doing so many good things for the hobby, I don't understand what the problem is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I listened to most of the rest of it at work this morning. I was glad he owned up to being a fence ("front" in his terms) for bad actors, but it seems he won't out anyone who confesses, apologizes, and reimburses those who were scammed. He believes all of these criminals are worthy of staying in the hobby as long as they promise not to do it again...

He says that he is working to identify "conservators" who he can point people to in order to improve the look of their cards, and anyone who thinks this is alteration just needs to "mature" like other markets. He didn't say if Dick Towle was on that list.

Things I do agree with that he said: the bad actor information needs to be freely shared between auction houses and grading companies so this doesn't become a case of "pass the trash." He referenced the plan that blowout member Superdan is working to catalog all these altered cards onto a website so that the info doesn't get lost to internet losses.

I disagree that the six to eight already outed by Blowout are redeemable in the hobby, and I would love for Brent to turn over his information on their consignments to law enforcement.

6 to 8?? There have been dozens.