T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *

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In summarizing....... American Lithographic printed the majority (190 subjects) in the 350-only Series with their stylistic frame design for the AMERICAN BEAUTY,
BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, DRUM brands. Furthermore, they included these five Assorted backs....CAROLINA BRIGHTS, El PRINCIPE de GALES, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR,
and TOLSTOI (displayed below).
However, a select Group of 37 subjects which were printed with the A - B - C - D backs were NOT printed with CB, EPDG, OM, PB backs. I find this quite interesting
in that it suggests to us that these 37 guys are an "exclusive" Group of T206 cards which were printed on sheets of their own. Furthermore their press run was very
likely quite early in the game (circa Spring of 1910). I base this on my understanding that the CAROLINA BRIGHTS and POLAR BEAR backs weren't printed until the
Summer of 1910.

The TOLSTOI backs were introduced at the beginning of the 350-only Series print runs, therefore a good number of these T206's are found with this back. Thanks to
Ronnie73 for researching the TOLSTOI backs (see Post #891), regarding this unique Group of 37 subjects.The Major Leaguers (26 subjects) in this Group of 37 were
printed with the TOLSTOI back. But it appears that the Minor League (11 subjects) were NOT printed with the TOLSTOI back.


v----------------------------------------------------------------------- 350 Series Assorted Subjects backs -------------------------------------------------------------------v




Checklist of this select Group of 37 subjects that are 350-only series No-Prints with respect to CAROLINA BRIGHTS, EPDG, OLD MILL, and POLAR BEAR.

Arndt *
Becker
Butler *
Cassidy *
Charles
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Downs *
Fletcher
Hall *
Hoffman (St Louis)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hunter
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
Lennox
Malarkey *
Marquard (portrait)

Marshall
McBride
McElveen
McGinley *
McIntyre (Detroit)
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mitchell (Toronto) *
Moran (Providence) *
Myers (batting)
Paskert
Phelan *
Poland *
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Schmidt (portrait)
Starr
Street (portrait)
Summers


* Denotes Minor Leaguer


TED Z
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[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The TOLSTOI backs were introduced at the beginning of the 350-only Series print runs, therefore a good number of these T206's are found with this back. Thanks to
Ronnie73 for researching the TOLSTOI backs (see Post #891), regarding this unique Group of 37 subjects.The Major Leaguers (26 subjects) in this Group of 37 were
printed with the TOLSTOI back. But it appears that the Minor League (11 subjects) were NOT printed with the TOLSTOI back.


TED Z
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I'm pretty sure 2 of these Minor League Tolstoi's will surface. One is in both of the population reports and the other shows as a possible David Hall card.

Last year I spent a lot of my time looking at the 150's and 350's. Since we are on the 350's subject, there's a couple things that stand out. The first thing is Demmitt NY, O'Hara NY, and Lundgren KC keep popping up as odd cards but I get it since they were all team changes. The other 4 cards that share a similar print run are Byrne, Cross, Mowrey, and Rossman. 5 of the 7 cards share the "No CB, EPDG, OM, PB" but they also have no AB, BL, CY, DR.

The second thing is there are 136 Polar Bears in the 350 Print Group. 2 of them being Demmitt and O'Hara STL. By using the 12 card row, some of them would have been possibly double printed or short printed. 11 different sheets would equal 132 cards. Would they have made a 12th sheet for the other 2 cards and double print 10 other cards, or short print the 11th sheet to add the last 2 cards and make 4 short print cards. Then after some time, maybe replace 2 of those 4 short prints with the Demmitt and O'Hara to make 2 super short prints? Just a crazy thought.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

The second thing is there are 136 Polar Bears in the 350 Print Group. 2 of them being Demmitt and O'Hara STL. By using the 12 card row, some of them would have been possibly double printed or short printed. 11 different sheets would equal 132 cards. Would they have made a 12th sheet for the other 2 cards and double print 10 other cards, or short print the 11th sheet to add the last 2 cards and make 4 short print cards. Then after some time, maybe replace 2 of those 4 short prints with the Demmitt and O'Hara to make 2 super short prints? Just a crazy thought.

Ron
I seldom (if ever) differ with you; however, my research places the St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara in the 350/460 series print group. I note this in Post #134 in this thread.

Apparently, American Litho (ALC) started their first press run of the PB cards circa Summer of 1910. This 1st print run of PB backs was on approx. 136 subjects of the 350-only series.
Followed by the 2nd print run (circa Summer/Fall of 1910) of PB backs on the 66 subjects of the 350/460 Series. It's my contention, that ALC printed the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations in this PB press run.

Check-out my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement* of the Sovereign 66 subjects (apple-green backs) which I like to refer to as the "phantom 350/460 series".

Consider the following...…
Joe Doyle & Bob Rhoades (POLAR BEAR No-Prints) retired prior to this POLAR BEAR press run. So, those 2 guys are removed and replaced by Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations.


v------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------v Joe Doyle v (below Cobb)






-----------------------------------------------------------------------------^ Rhoades ^ (above Wilhelm)


I arrived at this theory by comparing Pop Report data of Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations with subjects in the 350 series vs the 350/460 series. The population numbers
overwhelmingly suggest that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations fit in with the 350/460 print group numbers.


* Note I have shown the 6 super-prints Double-Printed on this arrangement because several large surveys have indicated as such.



TED Z
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[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Ron
I seldom (if ever) differ with you; however, my research places the St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara in the 350/460 series print group. I note this in Post #134 in this thread.

Apparently, American Litho (ALC) started their first press run of the PB cards circa Summer of 1910. This 1st print run of PB backs was on approx. 136 subjects of the 350-only series.
Followed by the 2nd print run (circa Summer/Fall of 1910) of PB backs on the 66 subjects of the 350/460 Series. It's my contention, that ALC printed the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations in this PB press run.

Check-out my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement.

Consider the following...…
Joe Doyle & Bob Rhoades (POLAR BEAR No-Prints) retired prior to this POLAR BEAR press run. So, those 2 guys are removed and replaced by Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations.



I arrived at this theory by comparing Pop Report data of Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations with subjects in the 350 series vs the 350/460 series. The population numbers
overwhelmingly suggest that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations fit in with the 350/460 print group numbers.


* Note I have shown the 6 super-prints Double-Printed on this arrangement because several large surveys have indicated as such.



TED Z
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Hi Ted, I totally agree putting Demmitt STL and O'Hara STL in the 350/460 group. Looking at your Sovereign Apple Sheet, the first thing that jumped out at me was the group of Sweet Caporal "No Prints". Going by my list and your "Group A and B" lists, I was left with the following findings that were different.



Replacing Doyle and Rhoades with the STL cards for the Polar Bears is a possibility. But what about Simon Nichols Batting? That card always ends up in my odd pile when breaking these sheets down. Plus its the most difficult Polar Bear, possibly more rare than the STL's.

Also, have all Sovereign Apple Greens with names on the top and bottom been different names? I thought that only happened in the 150 series.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Hi Ted, I totally agree putting Demmitt STL and O'Hara STL in the 350/460 group. Looking at your Sovereign Apple Sheet, the first thing that jumped out at me was the group of Sweet Caporal "No Prints". Going by my list and your "Group A and B" lists, I was left with the following findings that were different.



Replacing Doyle and Rhoades with the STL cards for the Polar Bears is a possibility. But what about Simon Nichols Batting ? That card always ends up in my odd pile when breaking these sheets down. Plus its the most difficult Polar Bear, possibly more rare than the STL's.

Also, have all Sovereign Apple Greens with names on the top and bottom been different names? I thought that only happened in the 150 series.

Hi Ron

Regarding the Nichols card. Jantz Morey (GOD Bless his soul) and I shared theories about this "350/460" subject 12 years ago.
At that time, Jantz and I were the only ones that (that we knew of) who had this Nichols card with a POLAR BEAR back.
Jantz was working on a POLAR BEAR run, and clued me in as to how tough this Nichols card was.

Furthermore, Nichols' AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) and DRUM cards are quite rare. And I base this on Nichols early MLB
retirement in the Spring of 1910 (the A's traded him to Cleveland). My theory says ALC replaced Nichols with Jake Stahl during
these print runs (circa Summer of 1910). Check-out this story in Post #39 in this thread.





TED Z
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[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





I received two emails this week from T206 POLAR BEAR (PB) collectors who (like most of us) had difficulty finding their T206 Nichols / PB cards.

Nichols (batting) Pop report data (PSA+SGC) shows 14 cards graded. There is no way of knowing how many of these cards are re-graded ones.

Anyhow, when compared with the other 65 subjects with PB backs in the "350/460" series, the Nichols / PB cards were obviously short-printed,
as the following Pop report data (PSA+SGC) examples indicate...…..

HOF

Bender (no trees)= 129
Cobb (with bat) = 225
Crawford (bat) = 169
Jennings (one hand) = 115
Jennings (one hands) = 102
Mathewson (dark cap) = 225

Commons

Bradley (bat) = 67
L. Doyle (bat) = 91
Elberfeld (fielding) = 88
Leach (cap) = 96
Street (catching = 88


My Nichols / PB is not a pretty looking T206 (with its Tobacco stains); nevertheless, it's no worse than some of my other POLAR BEAR's.

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TED Z
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[Ronnie73]

Here's a couple of mine.