Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

egbeachley · #1 07-10-2020, 10:49 AM

I always thought it was Lefty Grove who, in 1930, pitched a quadruple-crown leading MLB in Wins, ERA, Strikeputs, and Saves.

Decided to look it up in Baseball Refenence. They have pitching WAR. Grove was the best lefty at about 9% greater than Randy Johnson. Koufax didn�t make the top 20.

Grove also had a better 4-year streak than Koufax, although I don�t know why people use that as a metric

G1911 · #2 07-10-2020, 10:54 AM

I find it extremely odd to see it argued that playing in a high offense era should somehow hurt a pitchers all time ranking, and that guys like Koufax who played in the easiest possible circumstances (pitching park, on a high mound, during a deadball era) must be better because there were many other great pitchers then. Dominating in tougher circumstances should be an advantage.

As for the 4 year peak arguments, I think this appears solely because it is the only way to try and argue Sandy (even though Grove and Kershaw both have equal or better peaks and better overall careers) is #1.

71buc · #3 07-10-2020, 11:08 AM

I like Spahn and Carlton

FrankWakefield · #4 07-19-2020, 12:35 AM

I saw Koufax pitch. And Randy Johnson, Spahn, and Carleton.

Koufax had his not quite great years, then he had his dominant years. I saw him when dominant. He was a durable craftsman on the mound, overpowering on one pitch then totally deceiving the hitter on the next pitch.

I didn't see Grove, but I think he's the answer to who's the best. And I think Spahn deserves recognition. I saw him at the end of his career pitching for the Giants one day against St. Louis. (I think McCarver got hurt or was hurt, and Uecker too, anyway they stopped the game and let Mike Shannon take some warmup catches as last hope catcher, and he caught the rest of the game.) Anyway, after reading James' Historical Baseball Abstract (I prefer the 1xt edition) I had to reconsider my thinking on the best lefty I saw... The man was a dominate pitcher and a war hero (not a modern 'he served' hero, but a WWII hero in combat actions.)

I do know when I'd listen to KMOX or WLW as a kid when the Cards or Reds were playing at night in LA, the odds were if Koufax was starting then the Reds or Cards were gonna lose, Wills or Gilliam would get on base, steal or get bunted over, then one of the Davis guys or Ron Fairly would drive them in. Seemed like a couple of runs would win a game out there. And the hell of it was that Drysdale was gonna do the same thing, only righthanded.

So I think it's Grove. For the numbers guys (I'm a bit of one somethimes), look at the career Wins Above Replacement. 26-Grove, 29-R. Johnson, 32-Spahn, and 321-Koufax.

tedzan · #5 07-19-2020, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I saw Koufax pitch. And Randy Johnson, Spahn, and Carleton.

Koufax had his not quite great years, then he had his dominant years. I saw him when dominant. He was a durable craftsman on the mound, overpowering on one pitch then totally deceiving the hitter on the next pitch.

I didn't see Grove, but I think he's the answer to who's the best. And I think Spahn deserves recognition. I saw him at the end of his career pitching for the Giants one day against St. Louis. (I think McCarver got hurt or was hurt, and Uecker too, anyway they stopped the game and let Mike Shannon take some warmup catches as last hope catcher, and he caught the rest of the game.) Anyway, after reading James' Historical Baseball Abstract (I prefer the 1xt edition) I had to reconsider my thinking on the best lefty I saw... The man was a dominate pitcher and a war hero (not a modern 'he served' hero, but a WWII hero in combat actions.)

I do know when I'd listen to KMOX or WLW as a kid when the Cards or Reds were playing at night in LA, the odds were if Koufax was starting then the Reds or Cards were gonna lose, Wills or Gilliam would get on base, steal or get bunted over, then one of the Davis guys or Ron Fairly would drive them in. Seemed like a couple of runs would win a game out there. And the hell of it was that Drysdale was gonna do the same thing, only righthanded.

So I think it's Grove. For the numbers guys (I'm a bit of one somethimes), look at the career Wins Above Replacement. 26-Grove, 29-R. Johnson, 32-Spahn, and 321-Koufax.

Frank

It is really great hearing from you. And, you described the Koufax story very well. I am somewhat older than you, and I saw him pitch when he started in Brooklyn.
Then, I followed him during the LA years because I had a feeling he would be great. His style of wind-up was impressive, quite compact and very effective.

However, the two Lefty's that haven't gotten any "play" in this entire thread are Eddie Plank and Lefty Gomez. I'm not that old that I have seen Plank play

But, I have read a lot about him....and, he is my man on the mound in any given season.
Lefty Gomez..I can say a lot about him; however, I leave you with this: I will place him above any other Southpaw when it's time for World Series play. I dare
anyone here to argue against Lefty's 6 - 0 W.S. record.

Changing Pitching styles....some one here mentioned Smoky Joe Wood. Last Summer we visited friends in Milford (Northeastern Pennsylvania), and I ran into
Smoky Joe Wood's Grandson. We had a great conversation, and I could sense that Wood's family cannot understand why Smoky Joe is not in the HOF.
His stats are as good (if not better) than pitchers currently in the HOF. Most notably his 1912 W.S. W-L 3 -1 record.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

cammb · #6 07-19-2020, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Frank

It is really great hearing from you. And, you described the Koufax story very well. I am somewhat older than you, and I saw him pitch when he started in Brooklyn.
Then, I followed him during the LA years because I had a feeling he would be great. His style of wind-up was impressive, quite compact and very effective.

However, the two Lefty's that haven't gotten any "play" in this entire thread are Eddie Plank and Lefty Gomez. I'm not that old that I have seen Plank play

But, I have read a lot about him....and, he is my man on the mound in any given season.
Lefty Gomez..I can say a lot about him; however, I leave you with this: I will place him above any other Southpaw when it's time for World Series play. I dare
anyone here to argue against Lefty's 6 - 0 W.S. record.

Changing Pitching styles....some one here mentioned Smoky Joe Wood. Last Summer we visited friends in Milford (Northeastern Pennsylvania), and I ran into
Smoky Joe Wood's Grandson. We had a great conversation, and I could sense that Wood's family cannot understand why Smoky Joe is not in the HOF.
His stats are as good (if not better) than pitchers currently in the HOF. Most notably his 1912 W.S. W-L 3 -1 record.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Sorry Ted, but Koufax blows him away. Koufax has more Innings Pitched ERA, Shutouts, Strikeouts. Its not even close. Gomez has two more wins And that's in 4 world series.

tedzan · #7 07-19-2020, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammb

Sorry Ted, but Koufax blows him away. Koufax has more Innings Pitched ERA, Shutouts, Strikeouts. Its not even close. Gomez has two more wins And that's in 4 world series.

Tony

I qualified World Series play regarding Lefty Gomez (6 - 0). Koufax W.S. record is 4 - 3.

With respect to career numbers Gomez has 189 Wins vs Koufax 165 Wins.

I prefaced my story that I was a Koufax fan, since I saw him pitch from 1955 to 1966.
Did you see him pitch in real time ?

Therefore, I'm not sure what you are saying.

And, when you compare numbers between Plank and Koufax, Plank wins the discussion.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

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