Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Testing...1,2,3...

I posted a 1982 Fleer Fernando Valenzuela last night to check if pics were working. For some reason it disappeared. Not a big deal, just pointing it out for the folks working on the board.

"Strike Out King". Fernando-mania was a big deal in the early eighties...Rob

[GaryPassamonte]

Warren Spahn won 363 games, most by a modern day pitcher. He also lost 3 years to military service. It's possible he would have won 400 games. He had thirteen 20 win seasons. I realize today's metrics don't value wins, but Spahn was incredible. He wasn't flashy. Maybe that's why he gets so little support.

[tjenkins]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Warren Spahn won 363 games, most by a modern day pitcher. He also lost 3 years to military service. It's possible he would have won 400 games. He had thirteen 20 win seasons. I realize today's metrics don't value wins, but Spahn was incredible. He wasn't flashy. Maybe that's why he gets so little support.

I have to agree with this. Spahn is easily my choice. Not to take anything away from Koufax but longetity had to bear some weight. You could possibly add 50 more wins in the 3 years Spahn lost to military service. I realize Koufax was dominating in his years played but I like Spahn's overall body of work.

[bigred1]

i think this thread has got me thinking more about Spahn, especially with those missed prime years.

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Warren Spahn won 363 games, most by a modern day pitcher. He also lost 3 years to military service. It's possible he would have won 400 games. He had thirteen 20 win seasons. I realize today's metrics don't value wins, but Spahn was incredible. He wasn't flashy. Maybe that's why he gets so little support.

I agree a lot with this. He's not a "sexy" pick. I don't mean that literally.. he just wasn't a flashy hero type.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

I agree a lot with this. He's not a "sexy" pick. I don't mean that literally.. he just wasn't a flashy hero type.

Other factors against Spahn were a small market mostly not so great team, a very ordinary physical stature and looks, and success based more on relentless consistency and finesse than blowing people away. But especially as was pointed out missing the years he did, a remarkable career. Destined to forever be at or near the top of those underrated lists we do once in a while.

[Snowman]

Randy Johnson in his prime followed by Koufax. Nobody else is really even close IMO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would rank them like this
Grove
Johnson
Spahn
Carlton
Koufax/Kershaw even at this point anyhow gun to my head I would take Kershaw.
Hubbell

Could see flipping Johnson and Spahn.
Koufax just too short a career, however great his peak, and I think it's been show that peak benefited a lot from pitching in Dodger Stadium. Take away the good looks, the heroic pitching in pain, the not pitching on Yom Kippur, etc., I think the mystique of Koufax goes away to an extent.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would rank them like this
Grove
Johnson
Spahn
Carlton
Koufax/Kershaw even at this point anyhow gun to my head I would take Kershaw.
Hubbell

Could see flipping Johnson and Spahn.
Koufax just too short a career, however great his peak, and I think it's been show that peak benefited a lot from pitching in Dodger Stadium. Take away the good looks, the heroic pitching in pain, the not pitching on Yom Kippur, etc., I think the mystique of Koufax goes away to an extent.

Peter. I like the list. And you have some valid points.
But I would probably put Spahn ahead of Johnson and probably put Koufax ahead of Kershaw

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would rank them like this
Grove
Johnson
Spahn
Carlton
Koufax/Kershaw even at this point anyhow gun to my head I would take Kershaw.
Hubbell

Could see flipping Johnson and Spahn.
Koufax just too short a career, however great his peak, and I think it's been show that peak benefited a lot from pitching in Dodger Stadium. Take away the good looks, the heroic pitching in pain, the not pitching on Yom Kippur, etc., I think the mystique of Koufax goes away to an extent.

C'mon man, if you're always going to harp on Kershaw's post season failure then you have to give credit to Sandy for his post season dominance!

[clydepepper]

43 posts and only three mentioned Warren Spahn!

I have always been a Koufax fan, but he is only the lefty GOAT for Peak Value.

Kershaw, at this point, would be second, IMO, for shorter careers, but Randy Johnson's peak value edges his.

Grove, Spahn and Johnson are tied, in my view, for Career Value Lefty GOAT..

...with Carlton just a tick below.


.

[JustinD]

Johnson for sure.

What if's don't count in my mind because then I give Johnson Koufax's park and higher mound and he get's more dominant..

6' 10" off a 15" 60's mound?

Ouch.

[esd10]

Rube waddell is who I'm going with as the best lefty

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

Nice Plank, Ted

Hello Mike

Great to hear from you....and, thanks for the compliment.


Regarding Plank, it surprises me that I'm the only one here who regards him as the best Left-handed pitcher. And, I base this on what I read in Connie Mack's biography.
Gettysburg Eddie was one cool guy on the mound who combined his mind with his natural talent to achieve a very effective 17-year career. He had 8 seasons in which he
won 20+ games (26 - 6 in 1912 with an ERA = 2.22 was his best year).

Won-Lost 326 - 194
Career ERA = 2.35

In post #15, I named three Lefty's who were the best with respect to the eras they pitched in. But, if I had to choose only one of them, it would certainly be Eddie Plank.

And for those of you, who get carried away with this ambiguous "new-speak" term, "WAR"....Plank's number (91) is up there with the best of the Southpaw's.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Yes #32 but have Carlton second as he also had some pop in his bat.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hello Mike

Great to hear from you....and, thanks for the compliment.


Regarding Plank, it surprises me that I'm the only one here who regards him as the best Left-handed pitcher. And, I base this on what I read in Connie Mack's biography.
Gettysburg Eddie was one cool guy on the mound who combined his mind with his natural talent to achieve a very effective 17-year career. He had 8 seasons in which he
won 20+ games (26 - 6 in 1912 with an ERA = 2.22 was his best year).

Won-Lost 326 - 194
Career ERA = 2.35

In post #15, I named three Lefty's who were the best with respect to the eras they pitched in. But, if I had to choose only one of them, it would certainly be Eddie Plank.

And for those of you, who get carried away with this ambiguous "new-speak" term, "WAR"....Plank's number (91) is up there with the best of the Southpaw's.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Love Plank, but about all I see where he outperforms Grove is ERA. He won 26 more games, yet lost over 50 more. Grove also had 8 20-win seasons, including his monster year of 31-4 with an ERA of 2.06. And his WAR is 20 points higher.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Love Plank, but about all I see where he outperforms Grove is ERA. He won 26 more games, yet lost over 50 more. Grove also had 8 20-win seasons, including his monster year of 31-4 with an ERA of 2.06. And his WAR is 20 points higher.

earlywynnfan

Reprising my earlier post here. Grove and Plank pitched in different eras. And, in my way of thinking, it's almost impossible to compare whose performance was better.
Yes, they both pitched for 17 years. And, both of them had 8 seasons in which they Won 20+ games. Plank pitched twice as many Shut-Out games as Grove, etc., etc.
I could on playing this silly numbers game. But, what matters most is that both these guys were "giants" on the mound in their particular era. Plank with Connie Mack,
and Grove's best years with Connie Mack.

Originally Posted by tedzan

In the era between WWI and WWII, then my guy is....…





And, in the pre-WWI era, there were no better southpaws than the guy from Gettysburg...…




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I posted a 1982 Fleer Fernando Valenzuela last night to check if pics were working. For some reason it disappeared. Not a big deal, just pointing it out for the folks working on the board.



"Strike Out King". Fernando-mania was a big deal in the early eighties...Rob

"If you have a sombrero, throw it to this guy!!!!" Although in this day and age Vin would probably get in trouble for saying that.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

[Koufax32fan]

Wow! People have a lot of very strong opinions. Based on my username, you might think you know my vote. This reminds me of the debates over MVP - what does valuable mean? What does best mean?

Let's put it this way. If you told me that you could take any pitcher at his peak and put him on the mound to win one all-important game - Game 7 of the World Series say - there is only one pitcher I would choose and that is Koufax.

If you told me that I could have any pitcher during his peak period to pitch a complete season to save a manager's job and get his team to the World Series, I would choose Koufax.

By the way, that includes lefties and righties (even though I would consider Walter Johnson for the season and Babe Ruth for the game).

If you told me that I could have any left handed pitcher for his career to build a team around, well then I would be considering between Grove, Spahn and Randy Johnson.

For just one pitch, Sidd Finch!

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Koufax32fan

If you told me that I could have any pitcher during his peak period to pitch a complete season to save a manager's job and get his team to the World Series, I would choose Koufax.

By the way, that includes lefties and righties (even though I would consider Walter Johnson for the season and Babe Ruth for the game).

Pedro in '99-'00 and Maddux in '94-'95 did things over a two-year stretch that no one else has in the live ball era, and only Bob Gibson's '68 season could match for even one year. There isn't enough mainstream focus on ERA+ or those guys' seasons then (as they pitched in a pinball game) would be remembered with the same reverence as Gibson's 1.12.

It's tough for me to consider much what any pitcher (or hitter, for that matter) did before 1920. Walter Johnson was clearly the best out there during the last decade of the dead ball era, but it was such a different game when everyone was hitting a voit ball from gym class. And his numbers during the 1920s (when he was in his 30s) were very good, but nothing legendary and a clear step below what Grove and plenty of others did when they were the same age in the live ball era.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Pedro in '99-'00 and Maddux in '94-'95 did things over a two-year stretch that no one else has in the live ball era, and only Bob Gibson's '68 season could match for even one year. There isn't enough mainstream focus on ERA+ or those guys' seasons then (as they pitched in a pinball game) would be remembered with the same reverence as Gibson's 1.12.

It's tough for me to consider much what any pitcher (or hitter, for that matter) did before 1920. Walter Johnson was clearly the best out there during the last decade of the dead ball era, but it was such a different game when everyone was hitting a voit ball from gym class. And his numbers during the 1920s (when he was in his 30s) were very good, but nothing legendary and a clear step below what Grove and plenty of others did when they were the same age in the live ball era.

Excuse me, did you happen to notice the last two years of Koufax??? To say that no one could match what Martinez did n 99-00 is absurd. Koufax crushes him in every category.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by cammb

Excuse me, did you happen to notice the last two years of Koufax??? To say that no one could match what Martinez did n 99-00 is absurd. Koufax crushes him in every category.

No, he doesn't. Or even close. Koufax had an almost identical ERA in his final two years. Pedro's WHIP was better in '99-'00. Pitching in Fenway at the height of the steroid years.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

No, he doesn't. Or even close. Koufax had an almost identical ERA in his final two years. Pedro's WHIP was better in '99-'00. Pitching in Fenway at the height of the steroid years.

"No he doesn't or even close". OK lets see if his even close: Koufax had more wins, better era, games started, complete games, shutouts, innings pitched, strikeouts . You are right, Pedroo had a better whip.


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