Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Well, at least e agree on something ...

Yep, that I'm a jock sniffing idiot for using statistics in an all-time debate. Really opened my eyes. Thanks.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yep, that I'm a jock sniffing idiot for using statistics in an all-time debate. Really opened my eyes. Thanks.

LOL, completely missed the point, yet again. Not surprising. Have a nice day. Continue on with your bad self.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

LOL, completely missed the point, yet again. Not surprising. Have a nice day. Continue on with your bad self.

Any other Koufaxers got any more? "bad self", "idiotic", jock sniffer. Surely we can get 5 today. My block list is filling up fast.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by G1911

Any other Koufaxers got any more? "bad self", "idiotic", jock sniffer. Surely we can get 5 today. My block list is filling up fast.

Please do. Then I don't have to deal with your idiocy any more.

[brianp-beme]

Holy smokes...without me even paying any attention, this thread has 550 replies.

I did not check, nor am I going to, but I am pretty sure no one has mentioned the misspelling in the thread title. It was of-putting enough to make me want to bypass this thread altogether.

Brian (by the way, I am the best lefty ever, even though I am right handed)

[toledo_mudhen]

So after 550+ posts it appears we now have a consensus..... Koufax is the "Best Lefty of All Time" - correct?

[HistoricNewspapers]

Randy Johnson is best lefty of all time and is in serious discussion for best pitcher of all time as well.

Had Johnson gone the Koufax route and put everything he had into a five year stretch, with no concern for his future, he would be putting up 420 strikeouts per year while pitching another 60+ innings a year. However, he didn't do that. He didn't need to do that...but still had a greater peak than Koufax.

Instead, Johnson was still able to throw a perfect game at age 40, win five Cy Young awards, and finish second three more times.

You know what is crazy?

If you remove those FIVE years where Johnson won the Cy Young award, he still has more career wins than Koufax; 204-165.


Best ERA+ seasons:
Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify


Johnson had unrivaled physical tools. No pitcher in MLB history can match his physical tools. He was six foot eleven and threw over 100 MPH with a ridiculous slider....WITH COMMAND(after a few year learning curve). Some pitchers had one or two of those tools, but nobody had ALL of those tools like he did.

Let me explain why the physical tools are of such importance. Why would you take another pitcher over Johnson if the other pitcher was ten inches shorter, threw three miles an hour slower, had lesser command, and similar or less breaking pitches? The only other factor would be mental make up. Do they have the ability to handle being a professional player? Johnson obviously answered that question. Do they have the mental ability to thrive for a long time? Johnson answered that question YES.

Environments a player plays in severely muddles or hides statistical measurements, but the tools are concrete. The tools are a known. A lot of the statistical measurements are unknowns because environment muddles them. An environment can give false perceptions of ones true ability. Six foot eleven cannot be muddled. 100 MPH cannot be muddled. Nasty slider cannot be muddled. Command cannot be muddled. The only other obstacle is mental make up and thrive to succeed. He obviously passed that only unknown hurdle.

So when you are weighing all this, the physical tools play a vital role in solving the dilemma of cross era comparison.


He had the results to back it up.

He was umpire proof. He didn't need the inches off the plate like Maddux and Glavine often did to excel to the levels they did.

He was era proof. He didn't need lineups in the league where numbers six through nine were zero threats and hit basically zero power...like which occurred in other eras where scoring was depressed, or era's like the 30's where only the elite few were legit power threats.

In fact, he pitched in probably the toughest era to be a pitcher, with the live ball, DH, and steroids. Any pitcher that can handle the toughest environment to pitch in, surely would have no problem in the eras where it was pitcher friendly.

He didn't need a dead ball to excel or last a long time.

He was stadium proof. He didn't need to rely on a certain stadium to make him dominant.

He had peak dominance and longevity dominance.

He was the guy that if you lined all these historic pitchers up at a local baseball field standing shoulder to shoulder, then watched him unleash what he had, he would be the guy every single coach would pick. Coaches would be drooling.

[Orioles1954]

I agree that it comes down to Grove or Johnson. Excelling like they did in the hitter's era really clinches it.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

Randy Johnson is best lefty of all time and is in serious discussion for best pitcher of all time as well.

Had Johnson gone the Koufax route and put everything he had into a five year stretch, with no concern for his future, he would be putting up 420 strikeouts per year while pitching another 60+ innings a year. However, he didn't do that. He didn't need to do that...but still had a greater peak than Koufax.

Instead, Johnson was still able to throw a perfect game at age 40, win five Cy Young awards, and finish second three more times.

You know what is crazy?

If you remove those FIVE years where Johnson won the Cy Young award, he still has more career wins than Koufax; 204-165.


Best ERA+ seasons:
Johnson....Koufax.....Grove
197........190............217
195........186............189
193........160............185
188........159............185
184........143............175
181........122............165
176........105............160
152........101............160
135.........93
135.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
118.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify
112.........Not good enough to pitch enough innings to qualify


Johnson had unrivaled physical tools. No pitcher in MLB history can match his physical tools. He was six foot eleven and threw over 100 MPH with a ridiculous slider....WITH COMMAND(after a few year learning curve). Some pitchers had one or two of those tools, but nobody had ALL of those tools like he did.

Let me explain why the physical tools are of such importance. Why would you take another pitcher over Johnson if the other pitcher was ten inches shorter, threw three miles an hour slower, had lesser command, and similar or less breaking pitches? The only other factor would be mental make up. Do they have the ability to handle being a professional player? Johnson obviously answered that question. Do they have the mental ability to thrive for a long time? Johnson answered that question YES.

Environments a player plays in severely muddles or hides statistical measurements, but the tools are concrete. The tools are a known. A lot of the statistical measurements are unknowns because environment muddles them. An environment can give false perceptions of ones true ability. Six foot eleven cannot be muddled. 100 MPH cannot be muddled. Nasty slider cannot be muddled. Command cannot be muddled. The only other obstacle is mental make up and thrive to succeed. He obviously passed that only unknown hurdle.

So when you are weighing all this, the physical tools play a vital role in solving the dilemma of cross era comparison.


He had the results to back it up.

He was umpire proof. He didn't need the inches off the plate like Maddux and Glavine often did to excel to the levels they did.

He was era proof. He didn't need lineups in the league where numbers six through nine were zero threats and hit basically zero power...like which occurred in other eras where scoring was depressed, or era's like the 30's where only the elite few were legit power threats.

In fact, he pitched in probably the toughest era to be a pitcher, with the live ball, DH, and steroids. Any pitcher that can handle the toughest environment to pitch in, surely would have no problem in the eras where it was pitcher friendly.

He didn't need a dead ball to excel or last a long time.

He was stadium proof. He didn't need to rely on a certain stadium to make him dominant.

He had peak dominance and longevity dominance.

He was the guy that if you lined all these historic pitchers up at a local baseball field standing shoulder to shoulder, then watched him unleash what he had, he would be the guy every single coach would pick. Coaches would be drooling.

AMEN! Brother!

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

AMEN! Brother!

He was superman because he was bullet proof

[cammb]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

One could also imagine him pitching his entire career at Coors field in the live ball era, then he would never even have a thread dedicated to him...and only the people who recognize the importance of context, would see his value.


But really, what you said is the entire point. He would need five more elite years just to get into the discussion, because only then would he would begin to match the length of dominance of Unit or Grove.

Until he puts up those five more elite years...he doesn't belong in the conversation of all time best lefty.

Originally Posted by G1911

Yep, that I'm a jock sniffing idiot for using statistics in an all-time debate. Really opened my eyes. Thanks.

I never called any poster a jock sniffing idiot but if you insist on wearing that mantle go right ahead. Reread my post. I will repeat, I am not a Koufax fan but I have seen him pitch several times. His performance was jaw dropping total dominance. So yeah I have never saw a better pitcher than him. When you compare Pfeister to Koufax it’s time to leave the building

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by cammb

I never called any poster a jock sniffing idiot but if you insist on wearing that mantle go right ahead. Reread my post. I will repeat, I am not a Koufax fan but I have seen him pitch several times. His performance was jaw dropping total dominance. So yeah I have never saw a better pitcher than him. When you compare Pfeister to Koufax it’s time to leave the building

Please identity which of Grove's stats are suspect.

[999Tony]

I’m not the first to compare koufax to Newhouser! This article even includes the allstar appearance similarity. Hopefully there is a more rigorous statistical comparison out there so I don’t have to try to do it. Ondeckcircle.wordpress.com

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

I’m not the first to compare koufax to Newhouser! This article even includes the allstar appearance similarity. Hopefully there is a more rigorous statistical comparison out there so I don’t have to try to do it. Ondeckcircle.wordpress.com

Newhouser ERA 3.06 WHIP 1.311 FIP 3.19
Koufax ERA 2.76 WHIP 1.106 FIP 2.69

for their careers, Koufax was clearly better.

Let's look at their 5 year peaks

Newhouser ERA 2.35 WHIP 1.189 FIP 2.59
Koufax ERA 1.95 WHIP 0.926 FIP 2.00

Koufax's peak was much higher.

That people have now chosen to pull "deadball" era pitchers in to compare Koufax is more evidence to Koufax's greatness. Plank was the best of the deadball era.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

Newhouser ERA 3.06 WHIP 1.311 FIP 3.19
Koufax ERA 2.76 WHIP 1.106 FIP 2.69

for their careers, Koufax was clearly better.

Let's look at their 5 year peaks

Newhouser ERA 2.35 WHIP 1.189 FIP 2.59
Koufax ERA 1.95 WHIP 0.926 FIP 2.00

Koufax's peak was much higher.

That people have now chosen to pull "deadball" era pitchers in to compare Koufax is more evidence to Koufax's greatness. Plank was the best of the deadball era.

The one major issue with Newhouser is that his best seasons were during WWII when many of the league’s star players were overseas. League was significantly “watered down.”

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yep, that I'm a jock sniffing idiot for using statistics in an all-time debate. Really opened my eyes. Thanks.

You haven't used any stats.