FS: 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson PSA 4.5

[bobbyw8469]

I am still sick I sold my '6' for $2,200....lololol.......Man, I could be sitting on a beach right now.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

I had multiple offers on ebay for around $40k and I've got an offer from a private party of $45k (which the buyer will write up if requested). Best case, PSA re-holders it (if deemed trimmed) and pays me out the difference of $17,500 and $45,000. ($27,500)
Or they can buy it outright at $45k. Steve or Joe if you're reading this...I'll wait by the phone.

I think you will be told to go back to the buyer you bought the card from and get your money back.

All you’re getting from PSA is an Opinion That’s All.

US Attorneys Office Please Prosecute these card Trimmers, I know it’s super hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt even with a ton of circumstantial evidence and physical cards, with before and after scans, however until anyone can see the said person-actually doctoring the card I think it’s extremely difficult.

I’m call For Civil Law Suits Going After Card Doctors, hit them in their wallets.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I am still sick I sold my '6' for $2,200....lololol.......Man, I could be sitting on a beach right now.

LOL. I think we can all point to sales like that. How about selling not one but two PSA 8 Orrs for around 3K each?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I think you will be told to go back to the buyer you bought the card from and get your money back.

That was Steve Sloan's letter when all this broke but it isn't how their guarantee is worded.

I wonder parenthetically if Nat will keep the guarantee in place or do away with it as another grading company did.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That was Steve Sloan's letter when all this broke but it isn't how their guarantee is worded.

I wonder parenthetically if Nat will keep the guarantee in place or do away with it as another grading company did.

That’s a good question. I guess we will see.....I fell bad for the owner of this card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

That’s a good question. I guess we will see.....I fell bad for the owner of this card.

If Aj makes 28K off it and gets it off the market, why feel badly for him? Seems like a win win.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If Aj makes 28K off it and gets it off the market, why feel badly for him? Seems like a win win.

That would be great ! I was referencing if AJ is told by PSA to go back to whom you bought the card for said refund, then I would feel bad for him.

He took the risk bought the card at the time he should be able to reap the gain in its uptick at Sale.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

That would be great ! I was referencing if AJ is told by PSA to go back to whom you bought the card for said refund, then I would feel bad for him.

He took the risk bought the card at the time he should be able to reap the gain in its uptick at Sale.

I dont disagree, but in a court of law I dont believe the market going up os just cause for "damages".

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA should want this abomination off the market, and the only way to assure that is to deal with AJ. Of course PSA should want a lot of things they don't seem to want.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I dont disagree, but in a court of law I dont believe the market going up os just cause for "damages".

Read the guarantee. They promise to pay market value.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Read the guarantee. They promise to pay market value.

Thanks Peter, but again curious if the market going up has an effect on one's damages in a court of law

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Thanks Peter, but again curious if the market going up has an effect on one's damages in a court of law

Ted it's too general a question. There are different types of contractual damages depending on lots of facts and circumstances including contract language, but yes, there are some where the measure of damages would include an "expectancy" -- in other words, the breaching party would have to not only make the innocent party whole but put them where they would have been had there been no breach which could include changed market conditions. Other situations might involve simply restitution, that is, restoring the amounts paid by the innocent party and returning them to where they were before the contract.

Here, though, the guarantee should control.

[Exhibitman]

And if it does not there is a pretty good body of law out there on consumer fraud, unfair trade practices, etc.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If Aj makes 28K off it and gets it off the market, why feel badly for him? Seems like a win win.

I would much rather have a true psa 4.5 Jackie RC in the long term.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ted it's too general a question. There are different types of contractual damages depending on lots of facts and circumstances including contract language, but yes, there are some where the measure of damages would include an "expectancy" -- in other words, the breaching party would have to not only make the innocent party whole but put them where they would have been had there been no breach which could include changed market conditions. Other situations might involve simply restitution, that is, restoring the amounts paid by the innocent party and returning them to where they were before the contract.

Here, though, the guarantee should control.

Thanks Peter, I can see the position now. I just couldn't see a world where "damages" would exceed the price paid for the card! Clearly market value has increased dramatically on this particular card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Thanks Peter, I can see the position now. I just couldn't see a world where "damages" would exceed the price paid for the card! Clearly market value has increased dramatically on this particular card.

Expectancy damages, and consequential damages where allowed, typically exceed purchase price in a variety of situations. That doesn't seem at all unusual to me.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL. I think we can all point to sales like that. How about selling not one but two PSA 8 Orrs for around 3K each?

What are PSA 8's going for now????

[JeremyW]

A.J.- Why didn't you just ask for offers on the BST here?

[Popcorn]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I am still sick I sold my '6' for $2,200....lololol.......Man, I could be sitting on a beach right now.

Same here lol don’t feel so bad. I still have a few Jackie 48’s but they are a 2 at best. Never sell seems to be he lessons here.

I wish I could post a pic.

[68Hawk]

This particular situ begets a more interesting possibility, and that is someone scouting for a high value card sitting in PSA holder that has been obviously trimmed, and is for that reason not selling for its true value in the market.
Say perhaps you can make an agreement with the Seller of a PSA7 51' Bowman Mantle that won't move at it's contemporaries number, for perhaps 60-70% of that value, hold for few years while the market hopefully continues to rise, then bring the card to the attention of PSA for restitution of what a truly graded card at that particular tier would bring.

You buy in at 40% below market but get to be made whole at full true value down the track, making not just the capital gain of the flip number but your bonus discount from below market purchase.


Get on the hunt boys!

[Rhotchkiss]

How is PSA's guaranty supposed to work (we know it does NOT work)?

Wouldn't they pay you the difference between what you bought it for and what a PSA A is worth? I am not sure they will pay out on the upside or downside the card realized since it was acquired, since the purpose of the guaranty is to make you whole. Lets say the card had gone from $17k down to $8k (like back in 2016), what is PSA supposed to do then -- pay you the difference between $8k and the value of a PSA A?

Also, if PSA will pay out on current value rather than acquisition price, according to VCP there was a PSA 4 that sold on 1/24/21 for $20,500 and a PSA 5 sold for $56,400 on 2/28/21. These are very current and relevant comps. Seems to me that a PSA 4.5 should be worth about the average of these two, which is $38,400. So it sounds like the offers you are getting are market.

EDITED -- I now see an earlier post where apparently the buy-out is at market value.... If that is the case, then nobody with an altered card is ever incentivized to take it to PSA in a down market. I guess it goes to the heart of the propose of the guaranty and if it is PSA standing behind its "opinion" than the pay out should be at FMV, whether that is higher or less than acquisition price.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's not that hard to look it up.

If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards, PSA will either:
1.Buy the card from the submitter at the current market value if the card can no longer receive a numerical grade under PSA's standards or,
2.Refund the difference in value between the original PSA grade and the current PSA grade if the grade is lowered. In this case, the card will also be returned to the customer along with the refund for the difference in value.

The current market value is determined by PSA, based in part on Sports Market Report and SMR Online values and/or recent prices realized from the marketplace. PSA will be the sole determiner of the current market value.

[Rhotchkiss]

Thank you! And why look it up when I can delegate?!?!

AJ, I think you should get at least $42k for your card from PSA based on two recent VCP comps.

“Never Get Cheated”

[BRoberts]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I am still sick I sold my '6' for $2,200....lololol.......Man, I could be sitting on a beach right now.

So many wish you were on that beach.

[jad22]

I'm am curious how often PSA is determining that the cards have been altered. How often are they disagreeing with the results that have been presented on Blowout?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by jad22

I'm am curious how often PSA is determining that the cards have been altered. How often are they disagreeing with the results that have been presented on Blowout?

A better question might be "How often are they agreeing with the results?"

It depends largely on how damaging the altered card is to PSA's image and reputation. In the case of the perforated Cracker Jack, it was an immediate decision to compensate. But with less obvious cards, you're potentially in for the fight of your life.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by BRoberts

So many wish you were on that beach.

What a strange beach, that requires you to have a PSA 6 JR to sit on it.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

AJ, I think you should get at least $42k for your card from PSA based on two recent VCP comps.

“Never Get Cheated”

You're assuming the recent comps are legitimate sales which they may or may not be.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by perezfan

A better question might be "How often are they agreeing with the results?"

It depends largely on how damaging the altered card is to PSA's image and reputation. In the case of the perforated Cracker Jack, it was an immediate decision to compensate. But with less obvious cards, you're potentially in for the fight of your life.

Just absurd that the grading company who grades the card then can review it to determine if they still agree with the grade. If not, they will compensate you. They really have very little motivation to change their initial assessment if they have to pay out on it. No independence.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by jad22

Just absurd that the grading company who grades the card then can review it to determine if they still agree with the grade. If not, they will compensate you. They really have very little motivation to change their initial assessment if they have to pay out on it. No independence.

Of course they don't!!!! BUT...how can you dispute the evidence in most of these instances??

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

You're assuming the recent comps are legitimate sales which they may or may not be.

I know the seller of the 4 and the 5 was Heritage. I agree not all reported sales are real. I am sure these two are real

[botport]

If PSA reimburses do they reimburse based off of a calculated current value or do they attempt to configure a value of the card at the time it was originally graded?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by botport

If PSA reimburses do they reimburse based off of a calculated current value or do they attempt to configure a value of the card at the time it was originally graded?

Scroll up and read Post 72.

[bigred1]

Wont value be based on SMR, lol?

[pokerplyr80]

Best of luck!

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I know the seller of the 4 and the 5 was Heritage. I agree not all reported sales are real. I am sure these two are real

The fraud takes the fun out of the hobby. Nice to hear these are legit.

[Lorewalker]

If AJ was made aware in Aug 2020 that the card he bought in July 2020 was altered why did he happen to wait until now to explore a buy back from PSA?

AJ had recourse with the eBay seller to return the card but he clearly opted not to. The card was good enough for him then when it was worth 17500 but not now when it is worth 45K? Am I missing something?

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by japhi

What a strange beach, that requires you to have a PSA 6 JR to sit on it.

I would sit on it forever as opposed to just a week. Come on man!!

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

If AJ was made aware in Aug 2020 that the card he bought in July 2020 was altered why did he happen to wait until now to explore a buy back from PSA?

AJ had recourse with the eBay seller to return the card but he clearly opted not to. The card was good enough for him then when it was worth 17500 but not now when it is worth 45K? Am I missing something?

Yes after I was alerted in 2020 I notified PSA and got no response. It was also well past the return date. Besides why would I return it, so the seller could resale to some other unsuspecting collector? Once prices started accelerating over the last 60 days, I decided to find out what the market would bring so I could revisit with PSA. Now that I know it's worth approx $45k in this market, I can hopefully force PSA to deal with this (it's in their best interest to do so now before it appreciates further).

[Hxcmilkshake]

So if I would've said "ok deal, 55k to you" you would've said no sale, j/k, this is not really for sale?

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Yes after I was alerted in 2020 I notified PSA and got no response. It was also well past the return date. Besides why would I return it, so the seller could resale to some other unsuspecting collector? Once prices started accelerating over the last 60 days, I decided to find out what the market would bring so I could revisit with PSA. Now that I know it's worth approx $45k in this market, I can hopefully force PSA to deal with this (it's in their best interest to do so now before it appreciates further).

If you were curious about a current market value, why not just ask instead of listing it to look like a legitimate sale in BST? Judging by your asking price, it looks like you had some idea of value.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Jim65

If you were curious about a current market value, why not just ask instead of listing it to look like a legitimate sale in BST? Judging by your asking price, it looks like you had some idea of value.

The Plot Thickens.......

[68Hawk]

I don't think there's a major problem asking for offers to determine value of the Jackie.
There's a huuuuge difference between what people 'think' is it's value, based on things as varied as what THEY would feel comfortable paying theoretically if they had the money, to what they last saw one sell at (could be 6 months previous), to even personal discrimination based on the issue itself or it's aesthetics.

Getting hard offers from buyers willing to commit their funds to a real purchase is a series of true numbers you can work from realistically and refer to.

Of course, with every offer the OP should have been contacting the interested party to let them know why he had created the BST thread, to thank them for their interest and to ask if they would not bomb the exercise for a pre-determined time so he could gather enough evidence.
No idea if the OP did this though.

He should have then started a fresh thread to discuss why he made the Sale thread and to encourage discussion of his situation.
Being called to do so by others sure makes him seem less hobby pure and creates the idea he might have actually been willing to let go of his problem to someone else for the right number.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

I don't think there's a major problem asking for offers to determine value of the Jackie.
There's a huuuuge difference between what people 'think' is it's value, based on things as varied as what THEY would feel comfortable paying theoretically if they had the money, to what they last saw one sell at (could be 6 months previous), to even personal discrimination based on the issue itself or it's aesthetics.

Getting hard offers from buyers willing to commit their funds to a real purchase is a series of true numbers you can work from realistically and refer to.

Of course, with every offer the OP should have been contacting the interested party to let them know why he had created the BST thread, to thank them for their interest and to ask if they would not bomb the exercise for a pre-determined time so he could gather enough evidence.
No idea if the OP did this though.

He should have then started a fresh thread to discuss why he made the Sale thread and to encourage discussion of his situation.
Being called to do so by others sure makes him seem less hobby pure and creates the idea he might have actually been willing to let go of his problem to someone else for the right number.

His original listing says $55,000. It doesn't say "or BO", nowhere does it even mention offers.

[AGuinness]

My two cents - first off it's sad that the hobby needs to deal with this situation and will have to continue to do so thanks to those who are willing (and greedy enough) to alter cards for profit.
Second, when it comes to this board, I would have reached out to Leon to clear this experiment by him before posting. It's his board, he's done an excellent job of running it and he deserves the respect of a heads-up on something like this.

[esehombre]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you think we will?

Haha--oh this is good stuff

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

I don't think there's a major problem asking for offers to determine value of the Jackie.
There's a huuuuge difference between what people 'think' is it's value, based on things as varied as what THEY would feel comfortable paying theoretically if they had the money, to what they last saw one sell at (could be 6 months previous), to even personal discrimination based on the issue itself or it's aesthetics.

Getting hard offers from buyers willing to commit their funds to a real purchase is a series of true numbers you can work from realistically and refer to.

Of course, with every offer the OP should have been contacting the interested party to let them know why he had created the BST thread, to thank them for their interest and to ask if they would not bomb the exercise for a pre-determined time so he could gather enough evidence.
No idea if the OP did this though.

He should have then started a fresh thread to discuss why he made the Sale thread and to encourage discussion of his situation.
Being called to do so by others sure makes him seem less hobby pure and creates the idea he might have actually been willing to let go of his problem to someone else for the right number.

Didn't get any offers from the BST here, but got a ton from ebay and two from private parties. Could have easily sold it many times.

Far too invested in the hobby to burn someone else with a possibly trimmed card. I also don't blame the guy who sold it to me on ebay. I'm sure he had no idea.

Originally Posted by Jim65

His original listing says $55,000. It doesn't say "or BO", nowhere does it even mention offers.

The pricing was strategic (including no obo in listing). Too low and I'd get too many inquires and have to give lots of explanations after. Just high enough to get a serious market offer.

Originally Posted by AGuinness

My two cents - first off it's sad that the hobby needs to deal with this situation and will have to continue to do so thanks to those who are willing (and greedy enough) to alter cards for profit.
Second, when it comes to this board, I would have reached out to Leon to clear this experiment by him before posting. It's his board, he's done an excellent job of running it and he deserves the respect of a heads-up on something like this.

Agree with this. Hindsight should have told Leon beforehand.

End of the day, the plan worked. I was able to get real market rate offers having placed card on multiple platforms in order to show PSA. And as a bonus generated some talk about this situation so I can leverage with PSA.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

So if I would've said "ok deal, 55k to you" you would've said no sale, j/k, this is not really for sale?

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

oops forgot to respond to this one.

Yes I had to tell both private parties (one at $40k and the other at $45k) the situation. Both people had no idea net54 exists nor blowout. I gave them both links to the blowout thread showing the evidence.

[jp1216]

So if someone on Net54 had replied "I'll take it at 55k" - what would you have done?

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by jp1216

So if someone on Net54 had replied "I'll take it at 55k" - what would you have done?

I think I've already explained. Read thread from beginning (or just post #98)