Tatis Jr. - the first 50-50 player?

[clydepepper]

He hit his eighth homer today - already has 10 errors.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

He hit his eighth homer today - already has 10 errors.

I've never seen a more incomplete player labeled as a "Superstar" in my entire life. He has a lead glove at short, and we've yet to see him hit for an average of any kind. Media nowadays is ridiculous throwing around this term like a hot potato.

And at the prices on his cards, talk about buying into the hype.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Seven

I've never seen a more incomplete player labeled as a "Superstar" in my entire life. He has a lead glove at short, and we've yet to see him hit for an average of any kind. Media nowadays is ridiculous throwing around this term like a hot potato.

And at the prices on his cards, talk about buying into the hype.

He hit .317 his rookie year.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He hit .317 his rookie year.

I should've clarified, Peter. Hit .300 over the course of a full season. I think he's a talented young ballplayer that has a promising career ahead of him, I just wouldn't put him into the superstar category, as he's overrated by the media.

I think the term "Superstar" is thrown around too liberally. Guys like trout and Betts, those guys are the upper echelon of baseball talent. Proven success year in and out, have shown they possess all five tools. In my opinion, I don't think tatis is a top five player in the current game, especially considering how poorly he plays his position.

[packs]

I think the league will figure him out pretty quickly if he can't learn how to walk. Soto and Acuna are beasts because they walk. Tatis is never going to be that tier of player if he's striking out 3 times as much as he walks.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by packs

I think the league will figure him out pretty quickly if he can't learn how to walk. Soto and Acuna are beasts because they walk. Tatis is never going to be that tier of player if he's striking out 3 times as much as he walks.

I dunno. Hank Aaron never walked very much. Neither did Andre Dawson, or Ken Griffey Jr. And probably others, but I'm not going to spend too much time researching it. He's just 22, so he has time to improve his plate discipline.

[packs]

Originally Posted by John1941

I dunno. Hank Aaron never walked very much. Neither did Andre Dawson, or Ken Griffey Jr. And probably others, but I'm not going to spend too much time researching it. He's just 22, so he has time to improve his plate discipline.

Hank Aaron has more walks than strike outs in his career. Griffey has 400 more K's than walks, but that's still pretty elite. Dawson didn't walk at all but I don't think the Padres expect Tatis to be Andre Dawson. I think they're expecting Hank Aaron for 300 mil.

You're right though. Time could solve all problems. He's got that on his side for sure.

[brett 75]

Current numbers look more like Dave Kingman than Hank Aaron. He will have to become more plate disciplined if he wants to become a real superstar. If he continues like this his cards might end up in the bargain bin! I’ve seen this type of hype many times before usually doesn’t pan out. Jeffries rookies anyone?
Brett

[packs]

I don't think I would compare him to Greg Jeffries. I think he's more like Kris Bryant. Made an immediate impact but not the superstar predicted. Just a good player.

[clydepepper]

Kris Bryant was MVP in his second year and led his team to a WS win...and while he's not known for his defensive skills, he doesn't embarrass himself either.

[packs]

He's a good player no doubt. I wouldn't call him a superstar though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

His career BA is .292 and OPS .945 (higher than God himself, Ronald Acuna who is 7 and 17 points lower). He's struggled a bit first month this year, but those numbers are none too shabby. Don't understand the earlier comment about not hitting for average. He's all of 22 no idea how he turns out yet.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His career BA is .292 and OPS .945 (higher than God himself, Ronald Acuna who is 7 and 17 points lower). He's struggled a bit first month this year, but those numbers are none too shabby. Don't understand the earlier comment about not hitting for average. He's all of 22 no idea how he turns out yet.

Seriously. His career ABs add up to about one full season and in addition to his .292 BA he has hit 47 HRs and stolen 32 bases. You can count the number of 22 year olds with that kind of resume on your fingers. He also has 67 walks, which while not high is not really low either. It's probably even above average for someone his age. The errors are a concern but Tatis wouldn't be the first superstar who switched to another position after failing as a shortstop.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by howard38

Seriously. His career ABs add up to about one full season and in addition to his .292 BA he has hit 47 HRs and stolen 32 bases. You can count the number of 22 year olds with that kind of resume on your fingers. He also has 67 walks, which while not high is not really low either. It's probably even above average for someone his age. The errors are a concern but Tatis wouldn't be the first superstar who switched to another position after failing as a shortstop.

Mickey Mantle, for example.

[brett 75]

Greg Jeffries was a good major league player with a 14 year career. Anyone who sticks around in the show that long is doing something right. When he came up to the majors his cards where over hyped. Do you see anyone paying big money for his rookies now? Simple no. Tatis may have a great career as well but the price of his cards and the hype associated with them currently is not going to pan out. Bring the average up to .300 plus or he’s just another player regardless of his home runs.
Brett

[brett 75]

Mantle improved his stats in his first 3 seasons. Tatis has gone the opposite direction declining in all major categories. Still has time to turn it around as the season is just beginning. Here are some numbers for a 22-24 year old super star
30 HR .250 average, 27 HR .271 average , 22 HR .249 average, Pete Incaviglia. I’m offering his rookies at a discounted price if anyone is interested :

[chaddurbin]

^^^i'm sorry that tatis ran over your dog.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mickey Mantle, for example.

...and Mr. Aaron.

Too bad they don't have some system where the players can refine their skills before getting to the show...hmmm.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mickey Mantle, for example.

Ryan Braun is another. He started at shortstop, and then moved to third base at Miami. He played third as a rookie, and was Rookie of the Year putting up a historically great season with the bat, while appearing utterly lost at third base. They moved him to left field, and that's where he should have stayed.

Come to think of it, Paul Molitor was also meant to play short, though I wouldn't say he failed at the position. Milwaukee just had another young superstar in the making occupying that spot on the field. So, they put him at third. One Hall of Famer playing next to another. God, I miss those days at County Stadium.

As for Mantle, yes, he was awful at short, but I wonder how his career would have turned out had they moved him to third instead of the outfield. If he stays in the infield, he never tears his knee in the '51 Series, and is relatively healthy going forward.

[SD]

5th fastest to 50 HR all time, makes unreal plays nightly, maybe one of the 10 fastest players in the league, but he no superstar?

Whens the last time you saw a runner tag up on a pop fly to the ss in shallow center and score? He has done it 3 times already. I get the team bias, hate for a player who isn't conventional or to the book. The bat flips and lack of varying about his opponents feelings rub some the other way. But he is the most entertaining player in baseball, hands down. That is why he is a superstar

[packs]

The most games he's played in a season is 84. That's why he's not a superstar yet. He could be one in time. But he's only played 171 total games. He's not on Acuna or Soto's level yet.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by packs

The most games he's played in a season is 84. That's why he's not a superstar yet. He could be one in time. But he's only played 171 total games. He's not on Acuna or Soto's level yet.

Agreed, let's let him get a few more seasons under his belt before we start fitting him for a crown.

Mark Fidrych, Bob Horner, Joe Charboneau, Steve Sax, Bob Hamelin, Kerry Wood, Chris Coghlan, etc, etc, etc.

Doug

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Agreed, let's let him get a few more seasons under his belt before we start fitting him for a crown.

Mark Fidrych, Bob Horner, Joe Charboneau, Steve Sax, Bob Hamelin, Kerry Wood, Chris Coghlan, etc, etc, etc.

Doug

Even a few years isn't enough. Doc Gooden, Darryl Strawberry, Eric Davis, probably Kris Bryant, maybe Manny Machado heading that way, Juan Guzman, Johan Santana, etc. etc. etc.

No question this is a talented, promising young man, and I wouldn't make too much of his early weaknesses. But if you look at baseball history that don't mean much. Incidentally his BA is up to .290 and his OPS is over 1.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Even a few years isn't enough. Doc Gooden, Darryl Strawberry, Eric Davis, probably Kris Bryant, maybe Manny Machado heading that way, Juan Guzman, Johan Santana, etc. etc. etc.

No question this is a talented, promising young man, and I wouldn't make too much of his early weaknesses. But if you look at baseball history that don't mean much. Incidentally his BA is up to .290 and his OPS is over 1.

He's certainly been on a tear since coming off the DL, saw the highlights of todays game as well. As a side note, still can't believe that he could've been on the currently stacked White Sox Roster if it wasn't for the Shields trade.

[Neal]

Tatis is absolutely a superstar. That status may or may not last.

[SD]

Yes I'm biased being a Padres fan, but foremost I love the game.Tatis continues to do things we have never seen. Regardless of how he finishes his career, he is currently the most important figure as far as marketing goes for MLB. Hence Superstar.

FROM STATS BY STARS:
Over his last 4 games, Fernando Tatis Jr. of the @Padres is batting .786 with 12 RBI and has also walked 3 times.

He's the first player to bat .750 or better with 12+ RBI and 3+ walks over a 4-game span since Babe Ruth from July 28-31, 1932.

[clydepepper]

Two more errors today in a 6-5 loss.

That's 14 errors in 32 games he's played in the field.

Padres are 5-5 in games in which he makes errors.

Thru his team's first 51 games:

HR-13
SB-11
ER-14
DP-14

Probable 30-30-30-30 player at least.

[SD]

He's more then making up for it with the bat and making plays he has no meaning making. How many games has he single handedly killed other teams.
Though he leads the world in errors, the padres are still 2nd in defensive runs saved
Hate all you want, a ss who hits like he does far out weights his uncharacteristic errors.
Your stats of the day.
Tatis is hitting .471 (16-for-34) in the last 10 games, hitting six homers with 5 doubles, 5 stolen bases, 22 RBIs and 8 walks.
He enters the day tied for the National League lead in homers with 15. Oh and he's also missed 17 of the 53 games the padres have played. 100% OVERRATED 😆.

[SD]

Leads the league in errors and is still top 15 in WAR(2.3). Take away 4 errors and he would be the top rated WAR player by allot.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by SD

Leads the league in errors and is still top 15 in WAR(2.3). Take away 4 errors and he would be the top rated WAR player by allot.

I think the Padres would be best suited moving him to another position.Pham has been terrible this season, and Abrams is working his way up through the minors. Maybe start teaching Fernando how to play one of the corner outfield spots, as Abrams gets ready for the bigs?

I'm glad to see he's hitting well, he's an exciting young ballplayer, who I hope has a very long career ahead of him.

[SD]

In a shortened 2020 season Tatis ranked 4th behind Arenado, Kiner-Fafela and Cronenworth. 1st for SS in outs above average. Also finished 1st in plays that only 5% of players make. So whether it's scored an error or not is not really relevant. It's about plays made or not made. He will make more plays than other ss's by covering more ground. That will also lead to more errors. 22 years old, he's staying at ss.

As bad as Pham has played to start the season, he has hit allot of hard balls right at guys or to the track. Since may he's batting like 260 with a 400 obp. So, comparatively there isn't a ton of options.

Abrams isn't ready yet, talent wise he's there, just needs to put on more strength. Having a team full of players capable of playing the 6 is an amazing problem to have.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by SD

Leads the league in errors and is still top 15 in WAR(2.3). Take away 4 errors and he would be the top rated WAR player by allot.

I realize this post was made 9 days ago, but he wouldn't have led baseball in WAR with 4 less errors. That's a bit of hyperbole.

Tatis is at 2.8 WAR, and not in the top 10. He's a full point behind the leader, Brandon Woodruff of Milwaukee, and 3.8.


Also, I love that the Brewers are beating up on some lesser teams. The hitting is starting to come alive slowly. And our #3 starter almost tossed a no hitter. One damned hit, grr.

[the 'stache]

I'd be interested to see if they move Tatis off of shortstop if his defense doesn't improve. He's got just freakish athletic ability, so maybe a corner outfield slot is in his future.

If his plate discipline improves just a little-and I think it will-look out. He really doesn't strike out like your typical power hitter today. His K% is 25.9%, up slightly from his 23.7% last year. Compare that to someone like Joey Gallo, who is at 32.4% this season, and had a career rate of 37.6% (a whopping 672 Ks in 1,785 career PAs). Gallo's walk rate has jumped significantly this season to 18.9%, up from 14.0% career, and that's with a lot of inconsistency. In the abbreviated 2020 season, his walk rate was 12.8%. The year before, it was 17.9%, and 12.8% the year before that.

Tatis is only 22, and his walk rate has trended up each season.

2019 8.1%
2020 10.5%
2021 12.2%

His isolated power (.370) is unsustainable, but his BAbip is actually lower than his career standard at .290.

His career OPS+ is 162, and I think he has room for improvement as a hitter, which is frightening. If he stays healthy....

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I'd be interested to see if they move Tatis off of shortstop if his defense doesn't improve. He's got just freakish athletic ability, so maybe a corner outfield slot is in his future.

If his plate discipline improves just a little-and I think it will-look out. He really doesn't strike out like your typical power hitter today. His K% is 25.9%, up slightly from his 23.7% last year. Compare that to someone like Joey Gallo, who is at 32.4% this season, and had a career rate of 37.6% (a whopping 672 Ks in 1,785 career PAs). Gallo's walk rate has jumped significantly this season to 18.9%, up from 14.0% career, and that's with a lot of inconsistency. In the abbreviated 2020 season, his walk rate was 12.8%. The year before, it was 17.9%, and 12.8% the year before that.

Tatis is only 22, and his walk rate has trended up each season.

2019 8.1%
2020 10.5%
2021 12.2%

His isolated power (.370) is unsustainable, but his BAbip is actually lower than his career standard at .290.

His career OPS+ is 162, and I think he has room for improvement as a hitter, which is frightening. If he stays healthy....

AT THE TIME, it was inconceivable that Fernando Tatis, Sr. could outdo his single-inning with two grand-slams feat...but, such a conception did occur.

.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Two more errors today in a 6-5 loss.

That's 14 errors in 32 games he's played in the field.

Padres are 5-5 in games in which he makes errors.

Thru his team's first 51 games:

HR-13
SB-11
ER-14
DP-14

Probable 30-30-30-30 player at least.

Well, He's gotten much better (was there any other way?)


Thru his teams's first 61 games:

HR-21
SB-13
ER-15
DP-25

Last ten games:

HR-8
SB-2
ER-1
DP-11

[pclpads]

No question the kid's a helluva talent, but he always makes me think of Bob Gibson. With his bat toss / flip, standing at the plate and admiring another HR and his new trick, a stutter-step at 3rd after a dinger, Gibby must be spinning like a top. Guaranteed, if he pulled any of these tricks from his bag on Gibson, the next time he came to the plate Gibson would bury a 99mph FB so deep in Tatis's ribs they'd need a backhoe to excavate hit. When did the current trend of showing up the opposition become de rigueur?

[Seven]

Originally Posted by pclpads

No question the kid's a helluva talent, but he always makes me think of Bob Gibson. With his bat toss / flip, standing at the plate and admiring another HR and his new trick, a stutter-step at 3rd after a dinger, Gibby must be spinning like a top. Guaranteed, if he pulled any of these tricks from his bag on Gibson, the next time he came to the plate Gibson would bury a 99mph FB so deep in Tatis's ribs they'd need a backhoe to excavate hit. When did the current trend of showing up the opposition become de rigueur?

It's interesting because I think there can be a healthy balance of players having fun, but being respectful. I think Griffey's home run trot was the perfect example of that.

I'm a little more annoyed at how lax the uniform policy has gotten. With buttons undone, or gaudy, gigantic gold chains hanging around their neck. I'm all for personality, I actually really like the idea of players being able to do whatever they want with their cleats, but I'm not a fan of a player having almost half his Jersey open.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Seven

It's interesting because I think there can be a healthy balance of players having fun, but being respectful. I think Griffey's home run trot was the perfect example of that.

I'm a little more annoyed at how lax the uniform policy has gotten. With buttons undone, or gaudy, gigantic gold chains hanging around their neck. I'm all for personality, I actually really like the idea of players being able to do whatever they want with their cleats, but I'm not a fan of a player having almost half his Jersey open.

Acuna does the same thing...of course, I was pretty crazy at his age...and I wasn't and still am not a millionaire who does my job in front of people every day.

As long as they hustle and never loaf, I can handle the flash. And Bauer's attitude toward all this is refreshing.

.