Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax! - Page 2

BobC · #1 11-19-2021, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

My favorite give it all guys are Derek Jeter in baseball and Alonzo Mourning in basketball. They both seemed to give all they had all the time.

Randy being a quitter that year could be why he has such a small fan base and the reason his cards are dirt cheap.

Great point and comments!

The majority of players, especially the great ones, know one of the most important things they can ever do is play for their fans. And Jeter is a particularly great example. Heck, how many times in his career did he hurt himself trying to make a play he should have just let go?

Aquarian Sports Cards · #2 11-20-2021, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

My favorite give it all guys are Derek Jeter in baseball and Alonzo Mourning in basketball. They both seemed to give all they had all the time.

Randy being a quitter that year could be why he has such a small fan base and the reason his cards are dirt cheap.

Also as Wilt Chamberlain once said, "Nobody roots for Goliath"

egri · #3 11-19-2021, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

If you take the paychecks, you owe 100% effort. Period.

Part of the reason why less than a week after Manny Ramirez was traded, there were 'Manny who?' signs going up in Boston.

BobC · #4 11-19-2021, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I wouldn't give Johnson TOO MUCH credit for his mental makeup and toughness. We're talking about a guy who intentionally tanked half a season to force a trade out of Seattle.

Great point. Forget the numbers, would teammates, and many other players, and especially fans, ever consider someone as an all time great if they had turned ttheir backs on their teammates and fans to purposely lose for their own selfish purposes? i would think it could become a very serious negative part of such considerations. But don't tell that to someone who justs looks at numbers. They'll likely tell you it doesn't matter and ignore something like that because it doesn't fit their narrative or their definition of what the "greatest" should be.

Statistics often ignore the human element, like this would be. How would one ever even measure and quantify something like this from a statistical standpoint to reflect the obvious negative impact such an action by a player would bring to his perception by the public at large? Actually, I take that back. Now that I think about it, I can see some statistician quantify such actions. Upon hearing some player purposely threw some gains by performing poorly on purpose, I can see a statistician go back and remove the player's performance results from those thrown games from his overall stats, because those thrown games are not a true reflection of the players actual ability, and therefore taint his statistical database. But doing that actually helps make the player statistically better and more likely to be considered the "greatest", and not less likely as I would expect to be the case in the eyes of a majority of the public upon learning what the player had done.

And if such ever did occur, it would just reflect another disconnect between the real and statistical worlds.

Mark17 · #5 11-19-2021, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Great point. Forget the numbers, would teammates, and many other players, and especially fans, ever consider someone as an all time great if they had turned ttheir backs on their teammates and fans to purposely lose for their own selfish purposes? i would think it could become a very serious negative part of such considerations. But don't tell that to someone who justs looks at numbers. They'll likely tell you it doesn't matter and ignore something like that because it doesn't fit their narrative or their definition of what the "greatest" should be.

Statistics often ignore the human element, like this would be. How would one ever even measure and quantify something like this from a statistical standpoint to reflect the obvious negative impact such an action by a player would bring to his perception by the public at large? Actually, I take that back. Now that I think about it, I can see some statistician quantify such actions. Upon hearing some player purposely threw some gains by performing poorly on purpose, I can see a statistician go back and remove the player's performance results from those thrown games from his overall stats, because those thrown games are not a true reflection of the players actual ability, and therefore taint his statistical database. But doing that actually helps make the player statistically better and more likely to be considered the "greatest", and not less likely as I would expect to be the case in the eyes of a majority of the public upon learning what the player had done.

And if such ever did occur, it would just reflect another disconnect between the real and statistical worlds.

This is exactly what people do when they choose Hal Chase as the greatest dead ball first baseman.

One of the measures mentioned in this thread is "If you had one game to win, like a Game 7, who do you want?" I have often thought that the single guy I DO NOT want on my team, for a big game, would be Chase. I wouldn't want him within 20 miles of the ballpark. The bigger the game, the more lucrative it might be for Chase to throw.

So, there are some who call Chase the best first baseman of his day, while I'll call him the worst with Gandil not far behind.

Carter08 · #6 11-19-2021, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

This is exactly what people do when they choose Hal Chase as the greatest dead ball first baseman.

One of the measures mentioned in this thread is "If you had one game to win, like a Game 7, who do you want?" I have often thought that the single guy I DO NOT want on my team, for a big game, would be Chase. I wouldn't want him within 20 miles of the ballpark. The bigger the game, the more lucrative it might be for Chase to throw.

So, there are some who call Chase the best first baseman of his day, while I'll call him the worst with Gandil not far behind.

Mark, walk me through this one. Interested to learn but didn�t follow solely based on a lack of knowledge on my part. Jim

toledo_mudhen · #7 11-19-2021, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

Mark, walk me through this one. Interested to learn but didn�t follow solely based on a lack of knowledge on my part. Jim

Im guessing that he is referring to the 1919 Black Sox Scandal?

From wikipedia :

it was universally understood that all eight implicated White Sox players were to be banned from Major League Baseball for life. Two other players believed to be involved were also banned. One of them was Hal Chase, who had been effectively blackballed from the majors in 1919 for a long history of throwing games and had spent 1920 in the minors. He was rumored to have been a go-between for Gandil and the gamblers, though it has never been confirmed. Regardless of this, it was understood that Landis' announcement not only formalized his 1919 blacklisting from the majors but barred him from the minors as well.

Carter08 · #8 11-19-2021, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Im guessing that he is referring to the 1919 Black Sox Scandal?

From wikipedia :

it was universally understood that all eight implicated White Sox players were to be banned from Major League Baseball for life. Two other players believed to be involved were also banned. One of them was Hal Chase, who had been effectively blackballed from the majors in 1919 for a long history of throwing games and had spent 1920 in the minors. He was rumored to have been a go-between for Gandil and the gamblers, though it has never been confirmed. Regardless of this, it was understood that Landis' announcement not only formalized his 1919 blacklisting from the majors but barred him from the minors as well.

Ah, yup, this is terrible but I forgot Chase was one of them!

BobC · #9 11-19-2021, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

This is exactly what people do when they choose Hal Chase as the greatest dead ball first baseman.

One of the measures mentioned in this thread is "If you had one game to win, like a Game 7, who do you want?" I have often thought that the single guy I DO NOT want on my team, for a big game, would be Chase. I wouldn't want him within 20 miles of the ballpark. The bigger the game, the more lucrative it might be for Chase to throw.

So, there are some who call Chase the best first baseman of his day, while I'll call him the worst with Gandil not far behind.

Mark,

That's an absolutely great observation, agree.

And by mentioning how some people may choose to define "greatest" by whom they would pick for a single WS game, versus how they performed during their peak playing years, or alternatively over their entire career, it underscores the need for all participants in such a discussion to first come to a consensus agreement as to exactly what "greatest" means. Secondly, then deciding on what they would agree upon as the appropriate measures to make their determination. And only after all that, then would you start looking at individual player's stats and data.

And if the definition was to be defined by who you would pick to start game7 of the WS, since we're only talking about a pitcher's single best game, and not their performance over a season or their career, do you think an argument could/should be made for Don Larsen? He cleary had the greatest single game pitching performance of any WS pitcher in MLB history.

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