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#1351
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#1352
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It turns out that insulting absolutely everyone active in a thread will make everyone in a thread unite against you. I for one am shocked at this revelation.
Waddell, Plank and Hubbell aren’t the best but they probably deserve more mentions than they have gotten. Waddell seems to me one of the great ‘could have been’s’, he had a fine career but if he’d been more mature/sane/dedicated he might be the one the serious people are debating. Last edited by G1911; 11-27-2021 at 03:11 PM. |
#1353
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-27-2021 at 03:13 PM. |
#1354
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Unfortunately, his point is so obviously wrong, that almost no one can agree. Though as he changes his position every time he’s cornered by the ridiculousness of his earlier contradictory positions, the individual who once agreed with him and broke the mold may no longer agree with his new hot take.
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#1355
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( h @ $ e A n + l e y |
#1356
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We are way beyond due for some card pictures. I have a Koufax someplace but will have to settle for these three lefties for now.
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#1357
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I saved my dollar weekly allowance to pay $3 at my local card shop for a 1989 Fleer Randy Johnson Rookie in 2000 when I was 9. It felt like a huge deal! Still have it somewhere in my junk wax closet.
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#1358
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#1359
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[IMG] [/IMG]
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Signed 1953 Topps set: 264/274 (96.35 %) |
#1360
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Sick!
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#1361
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How about best lefthanded pitcher by Era?
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And we could debate about what the different, distinct eras are, but for me I'd break them out roughly as follows: 19th Century (18** - 1899) Pre-War Deadball (1900 - 1920) Pre-War Liveball (1920 - 1945) Post-War Vintage (1945 - 1980) Post-War Modern (1980 - 2000) 21st Century Modern (2000 - 202*) Feel free to say/do what you want with these, but they do kind of run along generational lines, which was coincidental and not necessarily my original intention. Now if these are kind of what would be agreed upon as the different eras, I'd say as far as best lefties go: Ed Morris or Jesse Tannehill for 19th Century Era (Toss-Up ?) (Not many good lefties pitching back then, but these two about the best in terms of Wins, W/L%, ERA, WHIP, Ks, and ERA+, with maybe the nod to Norris for pitching 15 seasons, to only 7 seasons for Tannehill.) Rube Waddell for the Pre-War Deadball Era (Eddie Plank a close 2nd) (Plank has over 326 wins [3rd all time for lefties] and a .627 Win% over 17 seasons to Waddell's 193 wins and .574 Win% over 13 seasons, but Waddell has it slightly over Plank in ERA, WHIP, Ks, and ERA+. Waddell also had a dominant 6 year stretch from 1902-07, leading the AL in Ks all six years, and won the pitching Triple Crown in 1905. Plank had a long productive career, winning a lot, but never really led his league or the majors in any significant pitching measures. This almost seems a repeat of the Spahn-Koufax argument, but I think the edge goes to Waddell in this case due to him pitching and being so dominant a few years longer than Koufax. Honorable Mention to Ruth maybe, but not enough years pitching.) Grove takes the Pre-War Liveball Era (Hubbell gets 2nd spot, but Grove all the way.) Spahn gets the Post-War Vintage Era (Carlton a close 2nd spot.) (Carlton would primarily fall into this Era and does have 4 CYAs, and a pitching Triple Crown, and with 329 wins only trails Spahn's 363 wins as the most all time for a lefty. This one appears to be a lot closer than it first looks, but Spahn did lose 3 prime years to the service. Slight edge to Spahn.) Randy Johnson for the Post-War Modern Era (Tom Glavine in 2nd spot.) (Maybe even though he pitched better in the following Era, more than half of Johnson's pitching career was in this Era. Glavine actually has 2 more wins than Johnson [305 to 303], but Johnson has a better ERA, WHIP, and ERA+ than Glavine, and crushed him in Ks.)) Randy Johnson tentatively for the 21st Century Era (Subject to change.) (Think this may be tentative for now, and we need to wait and see how current lefty pitchers like Kershaw and DeGrom finish out their careers. Johnson had his best years primarily in this Era. For now, Glavine may still be in 2nd, with the aforemented still active pitchers maybe closing fast.) Last edited by BobC; 11-27-2021 at 06:24 PM. |
#1362
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#1363
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I know it isn't statistically relevant or necessarily makes sense, but had he simply retired for no good reason, I wouldn't have counted the early retirement against him so much. He was at the height of his career when he stopped so, if I thought he could still be able to play at a high level otherwise, I would tend to subconciously see him continuing to perform well. Kind of like you may subconsciously think Spahn would have been doing had he not lost those 3 years to the service. But because he retired due to health, I think of him as being done at the point, with further enhancement to his career or stats not happening. Just the way it comes across to me, and doubt anyone else may think about it in that manner. |
#1364
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#1365
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For the era breakdown:
19th century - surprisingly weak. Has to be someone by default, but none really belong in this conversation. Deadball - Plank. It should have been Waddell, but Plank pitched another 1,500 innings and was very effective while Waddell was crazy and done by 32. Plank pitched effectively his entire career; even in limited innings at 41 his ERA was 45% better than the league. Plank had only one season below the league average ERA, and that year his FIP was .70 better than his ERA. Plank was a model of excellent consistency, very similar to Spahn. What holds Plank back is that he never really dominated the league; unlike Spahn who annihilated the league 2 times in his long career and was excellently consistent the rest of the time. Waddell though has my favorite season by a lefty. In 1900, his first full season, Waddell led the National League in ERA, FIP, ERA+, K/9 and WHIP. He only pitched 208 innings, not that many back then, but he might have been the best pitcher in the league that season. He completed 16 of his 22 starts. He won 8 games and lost 13. What makes it so weird is that he was actually on a very good team. The Pirates won 79 games and lost 60 (Their Pythagorean is 81-58), finished 2nd in the NL that season. And yet the league ERA champion on the #2 team went 8-13. I do not think there has ever been a more tough luck season for a southpaw than this. Pre-War Liveball - Grove . To see how good Grove is, look at how good Hubbell was. Grove absolutely smokes him. As a Giants fan, Hubbell is my favorite of the two but facts are facts. Post-War Vintage - Spahn. Carlton is not that far behind, but definitely behind I think. Ford was as good as either of them, but he loses significant value by his low inning count (low in the context of an all time great discussion, that is) and so comes in a way behind them. Too much has been made of Ford's winning % and not enough of Ford's ERA relative to context. He really deserves a better look than he has gotten thus far. 1980-2021 - Randy Johnson, by a country mile. Kershaw is very unlikely to have enough effective innings left in him to overcome Randy, even with Johnson's late bloom. |
#1366
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Waddell and Plank is a tough one, and as noted, similiar to the Spahn-Koufax debate. Either is a good pick really, but I thought Waddell here because he did succeed for longer than Koufax and, despite the wins, Plank NEVER led the league in any important pitching stats, unlike Spahn who did lead in Wins 8 times, ERA 3 times, and Ks 4 years in a row. The only selection you and I disagree on among the different eras. I'm with you on the other Era selections. |
#1367
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Average HOF black ink: 40 Plank Gray ink: 291 Average HOF gray ink: 185 This is what really hurts Plank, he never was really the best pitcher. He was the 2-5 pitcher in the league almost every season. He never had a bad year or really declined. He came into the league excellent and left excellent, which very few have done in lengthy careers. The only time he led in major stats was 1915, his year in the Federal League that was a much inferior league to the National and Americans. WAR has Plank just a bit below Grove/Johnson/Spahn. Personally I think WAR is biased to modern players and disagree with much of what it weights more than other things, but it does a pretty good job of total value bettween players in a generation. Plank is at 90, Waddell 58, and WAR loves strikeouts which favors Waddell. If I was a GM, and I knew the future, I would draft Gettysburg Eddie for my team over Rube. I’ve got my ace until he’s 41, or a crazy guy whose brilliant but done at 32. If we were to use the Koufax argument, that only a pitchers best matters, Waddell might be #1 all time. Even in his best years where he tore up the league and won ERA crowns, and granting that the newspapers are probably a little hyperbolic at the least, Waddell was undisciplined, unfocused, and rarely all there. I’m not sure there has ever been a greater left hand talent than him, though I don’t think his career was as valuable as Planks. Koufax was gifted the perfect park, with the perfect mound, in an expansion period. Waddell was given a period where strikeouts were tough to come by, and severe mental problems and no discipline. Both were great for a short time, but there was little room for peak Koufax to be better, Waddell even at his best is something of a disappointment. Waddell has the cooler cards too. His E93 as another poster mentioned is gorgeous. His T206 pitching pose and Turkey Red are also beauties. Planks T206 gets the press, but it’s not an aesthetic favorite to me. I own none of either pitchers cards.. Last edited by G1911; 11-28-2021 at 10:37 AM. |
#1368
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#1369
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Thanks for that! LMFAO
__________________
"If you ever discover the sneakers for far more shoes in your everyday individual, and also have a wool, will not disregard the going connected with sneakers by Isabel Marant a person." =AcellaGet |
#1370
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On the other hand, it really was true that Koufax, in his prime, had the potential to throw a no-hitter at any time. He threw one in 1962, one in 1963, another in 1964, and a perfecto in 1965. No hitters, not to mention perfect games, are the ultimate domination for a pitcher vs. his opponent.
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