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  #1351  
Old 11-27-2021, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
This is the perfect example of why everyone hates lawyers. There isn't a single person here, including yourself, who is confused about what someone actually means when they say something like "all he/she does is X". Then the forum captain lawyer comes along to point out the obvious, "well actually, he did make a post about Jackie Robinson last week". Or if someone says, "all he does is sleep", you're the genius that's going to point out, "well actually, I saw him eating lunch yesterday".

I'm done playing games with you Peter. Have fun talking to the wall like you always do.

My point is clear. Lorewalker stalks me from thread to thread. He has a serious problem. The majority of his content over the past 3 or 4 months is either directly about me or mocking me. It's extremely childish.
Being a statistician, perhaps you can go back and compute the number of your posts with an ad hominem comment ridiculing someone, or the forum collectively?
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  #1352  
Old 11-27-2021, 03:10 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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It turns out that insulting absolutely everyone active in a thread will make everyone in a thread unite against you. I for one am shocked at this revelation.

Waddell, Plank and Hubbell aren’t the best but they probably deserve more mentions than they have gotten. Waddell seems to me one of the great ‘could have been’s’, he had a fine career but if he’d been more mature/sane/dedicated he might be the one the serious people are debating.

Last edited by G1911; 11-27-2021 at 03:11 PM.
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  #1353  
Old 11-27-2021, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
It turns out that insulting absolutely everyone active in a thread will make everyone in a thread unite against you. I for one am shocked at this revelation.

Waddell, Plank and Hubbell aren’t the best but they probably deserve more mentions than they have gotten. Waddell seems to me one of the great ‘could have been’s’, he had a fine career but if he’d been more mature/sane/dedicated he might be the one the serious people are debating.
He did complement one guy who agreed with him about something. See that's the sole criterion, someone who agrees with him gets it, everybody else is stupid.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-27-2021 at 03:13 PM.
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  #1354  
Old 11-27-2021, 03:17 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
He did complement one guy who agreed with him about something. See that's the sole criterion, someone who agrees with him gets it, everybody else is stupid.
Unfortunately, his point is so obviously wrong, that almost no one can agree. Though as he changes his position every time he’s cornered by the ridiculousness of his earlier contradictory positions, the individual who once agreed with him and broke the mold may no longer agree with his new hot take.
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  #1355  
Old 11-27-2021, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Unfortunately, his point is so obviously wrong, that almost no one can agree. Though as he changes his position every time he’s cornered by the ridiculousness of his earlier contradictory positions, the individual who once agreed with him and broke the mold may no longer agree with his new hot take.
He admitted to it yesterday when he used the word argue to describe what he sees as taking place here. Sure arguments can happen but I think most of us are here to discuss or debate, civilly. Not this dude. He comes to fight and is here just to argue. He takes a position and then he pivots when he is made to look silly, thereby changing the emphasis of the discussion, or as he refers to it, the argument. Some of the theories he has put forth as facts are hilarious.
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  #1356  
Old 11-27-2021, 04:37 PM
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We are way beyond due for some card pictures. I have a Koufax someplace but will have to settle for these three lefties for now.
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  #1357  
Old 11-27-2021, 04:39 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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I saved my dollar weekly allowance to pay $3 at my local card shop for a 1989 Fleer Randy Johnson Rookie in 2000 when I was 9. It felt like a huge deal! Still have it somewhere in my junk wax closet.
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  #1358  
Old 11-27-2021, 05:12 PM
Carter08 Carter08 is offline
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
It turns out that insulting absolutely everyone active in a thread will make everyone in a thread unite against you. I for one am shocked at this revelation.

Waddell, Plank and Hubbell aren’t the best but they probably deserve more mentions than they have gotten. Waddell seems to me one of the great ‘could have been’s’, he had a fine career but if he’d been more mature/sane/dedicated he might be the one the serious people are debating.
I just paid silly money for an e93 waddell. Inspiring me to learn more about him. Interesting character so far.
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  #1359  
Old 11-27-2021, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
We are way beyond due for some card pictures. I have a Koufax someplace but will have to settle for these three lefties for now.
Picked this up from a board member a while back:

[IMG] [/IMG]
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  #1360  
Old 11-27-2021, 06:05 PM
Carter08 Carter08 is offline
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Picked this up from a board member a while back:

[IMG] [/IMG]
Sick!
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  #1361  
Old 11-27-2021, 06:10 PM
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Default How about best lefthanded pitcher by Era?

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Anyways, Grove Vs. Johnson Vs. Spahn with the shared acknowledgement that all 3 were truly great pitchers is a much more reasonable polite debate for us all to have than the screeching from Koufax stans that is most of this.
I can't disagree with these three, makes too much sense. But really can't tell you how to pick one over the other two. They're truly from three distinct eras, which is part of what makes it so tough to try choose just one as the best. Maybe because of the disparity between the different eras, rather than trying to pick just one overall great lefty, why not see if there isn't more of a consensus of who the best lefty is in each era.

And we could debate about what the different, distinct eras are, but for me I'd break them out roughly as follows:

19th Century (18** - 1899)
Pre-War Deadball (1900 - 1920)
Pre-War Liveball (1920 - 1945)
Post-War Vintage (1945 - 1980)
Post-War Modern (1980 - 2000)
21st Century Modern (2000 - 202*)

Feel free to say/do what you want with these, but they do kind of run along generational lines, which was coincidental and not necessarily my original intention.

Now if these are kind of what would be agreed upon as the different eras, I'd say as far as best lefties go:


Ed Morris or Jesse Tannehill for 19th Century Era (Toss-Up ?)

(Not many good lefties pitching back then, but these two about the best in terms of Wins, W/L%, ERA, WHIP, Ks, and ERA+, with maybe the nod to Norris for pitching 15 seasons, to only 7 seasons for Tannehill.)



Rube Waddell for the Pre-War Deadball Era (Eddie Plank a close 2nd)

(Plank has over 326 wins [3rd all time for lefties] and a .627 Win% over 17 seasons to Waddell's 193 wins and .574 Win% over 13 seasons, but Waddell has it slightly over Plank in ERA, WHIP, Ks, and ERA+. Waddell also had a dominant 6 year stretch from 1902-07, leading the AL in Ks all six years, and won the pitching Triple Crown in 1905. Plank had a long productive career, winning a lot, but never really led his league or the majors in any significant pitching measures. This almost seems a repeat of the Spahn-Koufax argument, but I think the edge goes to Waddell in this case due to him pitching and being so dominant a few years longer than Koufax. Honorable Mention to Ruth maybe, but not enough years pitching.)



Grove takes the Pre-War Liveball Era

(Hubbell gets 2nd spot, but Grove all the way.)



Spahn gets the Post-War Vintage Era (Carlton a close 2nd spot.)

(Carlton would primarily fall into this Era and does have 4 CYAs, and a pitching Triple Crown, and with 329 wins only trails Spahn's 363 wins as the most all time for a lefty. This one appears to be a lot closer than it first looks, but Spahn did lose 3 prime years to the service. Slight edge to Spahn.)



Randy Johnson for the Post-War Modern Era (Tom Glavine in 2nd spot.)

(Maybe even though he pitched better in the following Era, more than half of Johnson's pitching career was in this Era. Glavine actually has 2 more wins than Johnson [305 to 303], but Johnson has a better ERA, WHIP, and ERA+ than Glavine, and crushed him in Ks.))



Randy Johnson tentatively for the 21st Century Era (Subject to change.)

(Think this may be tentative for now, and we need to wait and see how current lefty pitchers like Kershaw and DeGrom finish out their careers. Johnson had his best years primarily in this Era. For now, Glavine may still be in 2nd, with the aforemented still active pitchers maybe closing fast.)

Last edited by BobC; 11-27-2021 at 06:24 PM.
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  #1362  
Old 11-27-2021, 06:14 PM
Carter08 Carter08 is offline
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I can't disagree with these three, makes too much sense. But really can't tell you how to pick one over the other two. They're truly from three distinct eras, which is part of what makes it so tough to try choose just one as the best. Maybe because of the disparity between the different eras, rather than trying to pick just one overall great lefty, why not see if there isn't more of a consensus of who the best lefty is in each era.

And we could debate about what the different, distinct eras are, but for me I'd break them out roughly as follows:

19th Century (18** - 1899)
Pre-War Deadball (1900 - 1920)
Pre-War Liveball (1920 - 1945)
Post-War Vintage (1945 - 1980)
Post-War Modern (1980 - 2000)
21st Century Modern (2000 - 202*)

Feel free to say/do what you want with these, but they do kind of run along generational lines, which was coincidental and not necessarily my original intention.

Now if these are kind of what would be agreed upon as the different eras, I'd say as far as best lefties go:


Ed Morris or Jesse Tannehill for 19th Century Era (Toss-Up ?)

(Not many good lefties pitching back then, but these two about the best in terms of W/L%, ERA, WHIP, Ks, and ERA+, with maybe the nod to Norris for pitching 15 seasons, to only 7 seasons for Tannehill.)



Rube Waddell for the Pre-War Deadball Era (Eddie Plank a close 2nd)

(Plank has over 326 wins [3rd all time for lefties] and a .627 Win% over 17 seasons to Waddell's 193 wins and .574 Win% over 13 seasons, but Waddell has it slightly over Plank in ERA, WHIP, Ks, and ERA+. Waddell also had a dominant 6 year stretch from 1902-07, leading the AL in Ks all six years, and won the pitching Triple Crown in 1905. Plank had a long productive career, winning a lot, but never really led his league or the majors in any significant pitching measures. This almost seems a repeat of the Spahn-Koufax argument, but I think the edge goes to Waddell in this case due to him pitching and being so dominant a few years longer than Koufax. Honorable Mention to Ruth maybe, but not enough years pitching.)



Grove takes the Pre-War Liveball Era

(Hubbell gets 2nd spot, but Grove all the way.)



Spahn gets the Post-War Vintage Era (Carlton a close 2nd spot.)

(Carlton would primarily fall into this Era and does have 4 CYAs, and a pitching Triple Crown, and with 329 wins only trails Spahn's 363 wins as the most all time for a lefty. This one appears to be a lot closer than it first looks, but Spahn did lose 3 prime years to the service. Slight edge to Spahn.)



Randy Johnson for the Post-War Modern Era (Tom Glavine in 2nd spot.)

(Maybe even though he pitched better in the following Era, more than half of Johnson's pitching career was in this Era. Glavine actually has 2 more wins than Johnson [305 to 303], but Johnson has a better ERA, WHIP, and ERA+ than Glavine, and crushed him in Ks.))



Randy Johnson tentatively for the 21st Century Era (Subject to change.)

(Think this may be tentative for now, and we need to wait and see how current lefty pitchers like Kershaw and DeGrom finish out their careers. Johnson had his best years primarily in this Era. For now, Glavine may still be in 2nd, with the aforemented still active pitchers maybe closing fast.)
I like this. I’m starting to come around to Carlton, Grove, Randy, and Spahn tied for the greatest with Koufax following them. Easy way out and I’ll take it.
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  #1363  
Old 11-27-2021, 07:19 PM
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I like this. I’m starting to come around to Carlton, Grove, Randy, and Spahn tied for the greatest with Koufax following them. Easy way out and I’ll take it.
Good, maybe we can cease the other crap and actually get some agreement. To me, the different Eras really makes it impossible to truly compare pitchers. This way you're looking at pitchers from similar times in a much more consistent context. The Koufax paradox is still there because of his fairly short time at his peak, and pretty early retirement. Personally, it is just too short for me to give him more credit. Especially when he retired and gave his health as a primary reason for reting early. Because of that, you wonder how bad he felt and if he had continued pitching would he have possibly been hit with injuries going forward, including possibly a career ending one.

I know it isn't statistically relevant or necessarily makes sense, but had he simply retired for no good reason, I wouldn't have counted the early retirement against him so much. He was at the height of his career when he stopped so, if I thought he could still be able to play at a high level otherwise, I would tend to subconciously see him continuing to perform well. Kind of like you may subconsciously think Spahn would have been doing had he not lost those 3 years to the service. But because he retired due to health, I think of him as being done at the point, with further enhancement to his career or stats not happening. Just the way it comes across to me, and doubt anyone else may think about it in that manner.
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  #1364  
Old 11-27-2021, 07:38 PM
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Good, maybe we can cease the other crap and actually get some agreement. To me, the different Eras really makes it impossible to truly compare pitchers. This way you're looking at pitchers from similar times in a much more consistent context. The Koufax paradox is still there because of his fairly short time at his peak, and pretty early retirement. Personally, it is just too short for me to give him more credit. Especially when he retired and gave his health as a primary reason for reting early. Because of that, you wonder how bad he felt and if he had continued pitching would he have possibly been hit with injuries going forward, including possibly a career ending one.

I know it isn't statistically relevant or necessarily makes sense, but had he simply retired for no good reason, I wouldn't have counted the early retirement against him so much. He was at the height of his career when he stopped so, if I thought he could still be able to play at a high level otherwise, I would tend to subconciously see him continuing to perform well. Kind of like you may subconsciously think Spahn would have been doing had he not lost those 3 years to the service. But because he retired due to health, I think of him as being done at the point, with further enhancement to his career or stats not happening. Just the way it comes across to me, and doubt anyone else may think about it in that manner.
He essentially did have a career ending injury. His elbow was gone and his long-time physician told him he couldn't get him through another season.
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  #1365  
Old 11-28-2021, 01:41 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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For the era breakdown:

19th century - surprisingly weak. Has to be someone by default, but none really belong in this conversation.

Deadball - Plank. It should have been Waddell, but Plank pitched another 1,500 innings and was very effective while Waddell was crazy and done by 32. Plank pitched effectively his entire career; even in limited innings at 41 his ERA was 45% better than the league. Plank had only one season below the league average ERA, and that year his FIP was .70 better than his ERA. Plank was a model of excellent consistency, very similar to Spahn. What holds Plank back is that he never really dominated the league; unlike Spahn who annihilated the league 2 times in his long career and was excellently consistent the rest of the time.

Waddell though has my favorite season by a lefty. In 1900, his first full season, Waddell led the National League in ERA, FIP, ERA+, K/9 and WHIP. He only pitched 208 innings, not that many back then, but he might have been the best pitcher in the league that season. He completed 16 of his 22 starts. He won 8 games and lost 13. What makes it so weird is that he was actually on a very good team. The Pirates won 79 games and lost 60 (Their Pythagorean is 81-58), finished 2nd in the NL that season. And yet the league ERA champion on the #2 team went 8-13. I do not think there has ever been a more tough luck season for a southpaw than this.

Pre-War Liveball - Grove . To see how good Grove is, look at how good Hubbell was. Grove absolutely smokes him. As a Giants fan, Hubbell is my favorite of the two but facts are facts.

Post-War Vintage - Spahn. Carlton is not that far behind, but definitely behind I think. Ford was as good as either of them, but he loses significant value by his low inning count (low in the context of an all time great discussion, that is) and so comes in a way behind them. Too much has been made of Ford's winning % and not enough of Ford's ERA relative to context. He really deserves a better look than he has gotten thus far.

1980-2021 - Randy Johnson, by a country mile. Kershaw is very unlikely to have enough effective innings left in him to overcome Randy, even with Johnson's late bloom.
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  #1366  
Old 11-28-2021, 10:04 AM
BobC BobC is offline
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
For the era breakdown:

19th century - surprisingly weak. Has to be someone by default, but none really belong in this conversation.

Deadball - Plank. It should have been Waddell, but Plank pitched another 1,500 innings and was very effective while Waddell was crazy and done by 32. Plank pitched effectively his entire career; even in limited innings at 41 his ERA was 45% better than the league. Plank had only one season below the league average ERA, and that year his FIP was .70 better than his ERA. Plank was a model of excellent consistency, very similar to Spahn. What holds Plank back is that he never really dominated the league; unlike Spahn who annihilated the league 2 times in his long career and was excellently consistent the rest of the time.

Waddell though has my favorite season by a lefty. In 1900, his first full season, Waddell led the National League in ERA, FIP, ERA+, K/9 and WHIP. He only pitched 208 innings, not that many back then, but he might have been the best pitcher in the league that season. He completed 16 of his 22 starts. He won 8 games and lost 13. What makes it so weird is that he was actually on a very good team. The Pirates won 79 games and lost 60 (Their Pythagorean is 81-58), finished 2nd in the NL that season. And yet the league ERA champion on the #2 team went 8-13. I do not think there has ever been a more tough luck season for a southpaw than this.

Pre-War Liveball - Grove . To see how good Grove is, look at how good Hubbell was. Grove absolutely smokes him. As a Giants fan, Hubbell is my favorite of the two but facts are facts.

Post-War Vintage - Spahn. Carlton is not that far behind, but definitely behind I think. Ford was as good as either of them, but he loses significant value by his low inning count (low in the context of an all time great discussion, that is) and so comes in a way behind them. Too much has been made of Ford's winning % and not enough of Ford's ERA relative to context. He really deserves a better look than he has gotten thus far.

1980-2021 - Randy Johnson, by a country mile. Kershaw is very unlikely to have enough effective innings left in him to overcome Randy, even with Johnson's late bloom.
Surprising how so few lefties pitched in the 19th century. The two I mentioned, Morris and Tannehill, are the best of the lot. I still say maybe Norris for a long career. Not a lot going on there in this Era for lefties.

Waddell and Plank is a tough one, and as noted, similiar to the Spahn-Koufax debate. Either is a good pick really, but I thought Waddell here because he did succeed for longer than Koufax and, despite the wins, Plank NEVER led the league in any important pitching stats, unlike Spahn who did lead in Wins 8 times, ERA 3 times, and Ks 4 years in a row. The only selection you and I disagree on among the different eras. I'm with you on the other Era selections.
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  #1367  
Old 11-28-2021, 10:30 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Surprising how so few lefties pitched in the 19th century. The two I mentioned, Morris and Tannehill, are the best of the lot. I still say maybe Norris for a long career. Not a lot going on there in this Era for lefties.

Waddell and Plank is a tough one, and as noted, similiar to the Spahn-Koufax debate. Either is a good pick really, but I thought Waddell here because he did succeed for longer than Koufax and, despite the wins, Plank NEVER led the league in any important pitching stats, unlike Spahn who did lead in Wins 8 times, ERA 3 times, and Ks 4 years in a row. The only selection you and I disagree on among the different eras. I'm with you on the other Era selections.
Plank Black Ink: 15
Average HOF black ink: 40

Plank Gray ink: 291
Average HOF gray ink: 185

This is what really hurts Plank, he never was really the best pitcher. He was the 2-5 pitcher in the league almost every season. He never had a bad year or really declined. He came into the league excellent and left excellent, which very few have done in lengthy careers. The only time he led in major stats was 1915, his year in the Federal League that was a much inferior league to the National and Americans.

WAR has Plank just a bit below Grove/Johnson/Spahn. Personally I think WAR is biased to modern players and disagree with much of what it weights more than other things, but it does a pretty good job of total value bettween players in a generation. Plank is at 90, Waddell 58, and WAR loves strikeouts which favors Waddell. If I was a GM, and I knew the future, I would draft Gettysburg Eddie for my team over Rube. I’ve got my ace until he’s 41, or a crazy guy whose brilliant but done at 32.

If we were to use the Koufax argument, that only a pitchers best matters, Waddell might be #1 all time. Even in his best years where he tore up the league and won ERA crowns, and granting that the newspapers are probably a little hyperbolic at the least, Waddell was undisciplined, unfocused, and rarely all there. I’m not sure there has ever been a greater left hand talent than him, though I don’t think his career was as valuable as Planks. Koufax was gifted the perfect park, with the perfect mound, in an expansion period. Waddell was given a period where strikeouts were tough to come by, and severe mental problems and no discipline. Both were great for a short time, but there was little room for peak Koufax to be better, Waddell even at his best is something of a disappointment.

Waddell has the cooler cards too. His E93 as another poster mentioned is gorgeous. His T206 pitching pose and Turkey Red are also beauties. Planks T206 gets the press, but it’s not an aesthetic favorite to me. I own none of either pitchers cards..

Last edited by G1911; 11-28-2021 at 10:37 AM.
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  #1368  
Old 11-28-2021, 02:00 PM
BobC BobC is offline
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Plank Black Ink: 15
Average HOF black ink: 40

Plank Gray ink: 291
Average HOF gray ink: 185

This is what really hurts Plank, he never was really the best pitcher. He was the 2-5 pitcher in the league almost every season. He never had a bad year or really declined. He came into the league excellent and left excellent, which very few have done in lengthy careers. The only time he led in major stats was 1915, his year in the Federal League that was a much inferior league to the National and Americans.

WAR has Plank just a bit below Grove/Johnson/Spahn. Personally I think WAR is biased to modern players and disagree with much of what it weights more than other things, but it does a pretty good job of total value bettween players in a generation. Plank is at 90, Waddell 58, and WAR loves strikeouts which favors Waddell. If I was a GM, and I knew the future, I would draft Gettysburg Eddie for my team over Rube. I’ve got my ace until he’s 41, or a crazy guy whose brilliant but done at 32.

If we were to use the Koufax argument, that only a pitchers best matters, Waddell might be #1 all time. Even in his best years where he tore up the league and won ERA crowns, and granting that the newspapers are probably a little hyperbolic at the least, Waddell was undisciplined, unfocused, and rarely all there. I’m not sure there has ever been a greater left hand talent than him, though I don’t think his career was as valuable as Planks. Koufax was gifted the perfect park, with the perfect mound, in an expansion period. Waddell was given a period where strikeouts were tough to come by, and severe mental problems and no discipline. Both were great for a short time, but there was little room for peak Koufax to be better, Waddell even at his best is something of a disappointment.

Waddell has the cooler cards too. His E93 as another poster mentioned is gorgeous. His T206 pitching pose and Turkey Red are also beauties. Planks T206 gets the press, but it’s not an aesthetic favorite to me. I own none of either pitchers cards..
And that all is exactly why this is possibly a tougher decision than Spahn-Koufax. If I use the washing machine analogy, that may point more towards Plank also, but it is much less clear or decisive of a measure as it is for the Spahn-Koufax debate. This is an extremely tough call and primarily depends on one's specific definition of exactly what "greatest" actually means or entails.
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Old 11-28-2021, 08:00 PM
Deertick Deertick is offline
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Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
We are way beyond due for some card pictures. I have a Koufax someplace but will have to settle for these three lefties for now.
Thanks for that! LMFAO
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Old 01-09-2022, 07:47 AM
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Mark17 Mark17 is offline
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On the other hand, it really was true that Koufax, in his prime, had the potential to throw a no-hitter at any time. He threw one in 1962, one in 1963, another in 1964, and a perfecto in 1965. No hitters, not to mention perfect games, are the ultimate domination for a pitcher vs. his opponent.
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