Jacob deGrom most Ks in first 200 games

[Jim65]

Pitcher wins are important, they are just not a fair judge of a pitchers effectiveness, they usually have more to do with run support. Is a pitcher who wins a 9-8 game better than a pitcher who loses a 1-0 game?


In 1987 Nolan Ryan lead the NL in ERA but finished 8-16, lack of run support

In 1968 Bob Gibson had a 1.12 ERA but lost 9 games, lack of run support .

In 1988 Joe Magrane lead the majors with 2.18 ERA but finished 5-9, David Cone was 2nd with 2.22 ERA but finished 20-3. Was Cone better or was it run support?

For old time pitchers, in 1910 Ed Walsh lead the league with a 1.27 ERA but finished 18-20. Was Walsh bad or was it lack of run support?

[packs]

Felix Hernandez won the Cy Young with a 13-12 record. Jacob DeGrom was 11-8 the year he won his second. He was 10-9 for his first.

I really don't think anyone cares about wins anymore. Julio Urias was the MLB's only 20 game winner last year. He finished 7th in Cy Young voting.

And for the purists; there IS in fact a Cy Young winner with a losing record. Eric Gagne was 2-3 the year he won the Cy Young.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How far are we from the day some middle reliever wins?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How far are we from the day some middle reliever wins?

If they were in the right role and were used enough, I could see someone like Garrett Whitlock or Devin Williams winning at some point.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How far are we from the day some middle reliever wins?

If they're dominant enough, I don't see why not.

He didn't really come close to winning it, but Mariano did finish 3rd in the Cy Young voting in 1996, the year before he became the Yankees closer.

Another interesting tidbit looking at Mariano's record. The year he came in 2nd place for the Cy Young as a closer in 2005, the award was won by Bartolo Colon, who happened to win 21 games for the Angels. Johan Santana finished 3rd while pitching more innings then Colon, and having a superior season in just about every other way. In today's climate he likely wins the Cy Young going away.

He should arguably have 3 Cy Young awards in his pocket...along with a pitching triple crown, a Gold Glove, 3 ERA titles, 3 Strikeout Titles, 4 WHIP titles, and a whole bunch of other bolded black ink marks on his baseball reference page. Many, many more then Degrom.

Santana pitched about 800 innings more then Degrom has at this point, and his career was deemed too short apparently, by the HOF voters. Santana was kicked off the ballot after his first year of eligibility.

I mention this because Santana seems the closest comparison career wise to me regarding Degraom, even though they had different paths to get where they got to during their careers.

Both electric, both great pitchers, and both will eventually be thought of more highly then many pitchers who will get into or are already in the HOF.

[packs]

What do you consider Sparky Lyle to be? I mean, sure, he saved 26 games the year he won the Cy Young, but he also pitched in 72 games total, starting none, and threw 137 innings. Obviously he was being used in a hybrid role and while I can't tell from looking at baseball Reference, I would bet a lot of those saves were of the three inning variety.

Same goes for Mike Marshall. He started zero games, had 21 saves, but he appeared in 106 games and threw over 200 innings the year he won. That's not a middle reliever?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

What do you consider Sparky Lyle to be? I mean, sure, he saved 26 games the year he won the Cy Young, but he also pitched in 72 games total, starting none, and threw 137 innings. Obviously he was being used in a hybrid role and while I can't tell from looking at baseball Reference, I would bet a lot of those saves were of the three inning variety.

Same goes for Mike Marshall. He started zero games, had 21 saves, but he appeared in 106 games and threw over 200 innings the year he won. That's not a middle reliever?

Mike Marshall’s 21 saves led the entire league. The #2 guy had only 15. Lyle was 2nd in the league in saves. It was a different time and relievers were used very differently, but Marshall is pretty clearly more comparable to the closer role, as was Lyle.

[packs]

Closer role in the sense that he got saves and finished games but clearly not solely responsible for doing that. He pitched in over 100 games and threw 200 innings but only recorded 21 saves.

This SABR article has some interesting information on Marshall's season as well. It notes that under modern rules Marshall would have been credited with 30 saves that season, and that he only converted 64 percent of his save opportunities, which would be pretty poor for an out and out closer.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/mike-marshall/

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

What do you consider Sparky Lyle to be? I mean, sure, he saved 26 games the year he won the Cy Young, but he also pitched in 72 games total, starting none, and threw 137 innings. Obviously he was being used in a hybrid role and while I can't tell from looking at baseball Reference, I would bet a lot of those saves were of the three inning variety.

Same goes for Mike Marshall. He started zero games, had 21 saves, but he appeared in 106 games and threw over 200 innings the year he won. That's not a middle reliever?

I consider Lyle, like Gossage, a closer in an era when closers often went a couple of innings or occasionally longer. A middle reliever, in my view, is someone brought in with no expectation that he finish the game, typically in the 3rd to 6th inning?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

If they're dominant enough, I don't see why not.

He didn't really come close to winning it, but Mariano did finish 3rd in the Cy Young voting in 1996, the year before he became the Yankees closer.

Another interesting tidbit looking at Mariano's record. The year he came in 2nd place for the Cy Young as a closer in 2005, the award was won by Bartolo Colon, who happened to win 21 games for the Angels. Johan Santana finished 3rd while pitching more innings then Colon, and having a superior season in just about every other way. In today's climate he likely wins the Cy Young going away.

He should arguably have 3 Cy Young awards in his pocket...along with a pitching triple crown, a Gold Glove, 3 ERA titles, 3 Strikeout Titles, 4 WHIP titles, and a whole bunch of other bolded black ink marks on his baseball reference page. Many, many more then Degrom.

Santana pitched about 800 innings more then Degrom has at this point, and his career was deemed too short apparently, by the HOF voters. Santana was kicked off the ballot after his first year of eligibility.

I mention this because Santana seems the closest comparison career wise to me regarding Degraom, even though they had different paths to get where they got to during their careers.

Both electric, both great pitchers, and both will eventually be thought of more highly then many pitchers who will get into or are already in the HOF.

For all Koufax's supposed unmatched stretch of dominance, his WAR7 isn't much above Santana's. But the more interesting thing is that there are … wait for it … 57 pitchers ahead of Koufax in WAR7.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For all Koufax's supposed unmatched stretch of dominance, his WAR7 isn't much above Santana's. But the more interesting thing is that there are … wait for it … 57 pitchers ahead of Koufax in WAR7.

We already settled this. Koufax and Ryu are the GOAT lefties.