So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

Peter_Spaeth · #1 09-14-2022, 07:20 PM

It's interesting that the common perception is that Clemente was significantly better. Ask most people, I think, where they rank both players and I bet on average you would get Clemente 40-50 (or even higher, a poster here had him on his all time starting team) and Kaline 90-100. But the numbers suggest much more of a dead heat.

G1911 · #2 09-14-2022, 07:31 PM

I�d pick Kaline, by just a hair though. They are very close by any honest assessment.

Clemente was great, and greatly overrated. The emotional narrative is strong, and he fits into a contemporary narrative, as a victim of his times and a great humanitarian with a heroic death. It doesn�t change actual performance, where one may reasonably come down on either side.

What really surprised me is that their slugging is only .005 apart.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 09-14-2022, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I’d pick Kaline, by just a hair though. They are very close by any honest assessment.

Clemente was great, and greatly overrated. The emotional narrative is strong, and he fits into a contemporary narrative, as a victim of his times and a great humanitarian with a heroic death. It doesn’t change actual performance, where one may reasonably come down on either side.

What really surprised me is that their slugging is only .005 apart.

Even leaving aside his death, Clemente had a LOT of charisma and was really a presence at the plate, my brothers and I as kids saw him in the 71WS in Baltimore and we thought we were watching God. There is also something to the notion that Forbes Field kept his HR numbers down some. Also, I think a lot of people (not Topps) admired him for being the first truly great (all respect to Minoso) Latin ballplayer, if I can still use that term.

G1911 · #4 09-14-2022, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Even leaving aside his death, Clemente had a LOT of charisma and was really a presence at the plate, my brothers and I as kids saw him in the 71WS in Baltimore and we thought we were watching God. There is also something to the notion that Forbes Field kept his HR numbers down some. Also, I think a lot of people (not Topps) admired him for being the first truly great (all respect to Minoso) Latin ballplayer, if I can still use that term.

Not Topps? I was hoping to get a dozen posts in before it became about race, but when did Topps say or do anything negative about the man? He went by Bob a lot and was not offended by it, as I recall from other threads.

D. Bergin · #5 09-14-2022, 08:00 PM

I think it�s more a case of Kaline being under-rated, rather than Clemente being over-rated.

Rad_Hazard · #6 09-14-2022, 08:07 PM

I�d say Kaline was better, but we are splitting hairs. Their defense was similar with Clemente having a better dWAR.

Fun fact: kaline won the Roberto Clemente award in 1973

Peter_Spaeth · #7 09-14-2022, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think it�s more a case of Kaline being under-rated, rather than Clemente being over-rated.

I think that's probably right, although Bill James makes an interesting case that Clemente was somewhat overrated.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 09-14-2022, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Not Topps? I was hoping to get a dozen posts in before it became about race, but when did Topps say or do anything negative about the man? He went by Bob a lot and was not offended by it, as I recall from other threads.

https://fourcrickets.wordpress.com/2...emente%20hated.

This Bob vs. Roberto thing was always a point of contention for Clemente, whose Major League debut was in 1955. As a black person whose first language was Spanish, he faced a double dose of discrimination. The media and, obviously, the baseball card company Americanized his given name, calling him “Bob” or “Bobby” or even “Robby,” nicknames that Clemente hated. He had the audacity to insist on being called by his given name, Roberto.

G1911 · #9 09-14-2022, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://fourcrickets.wordpress.com/2...emente%20hated.

This Bob vs. Roberto thing was always a point of contention for Clemente, whose Major League debut was in 1955. As a black person whose first language was Spanish, he faced a double dose of discrimination. The media and, obviously, the baseball card company Americanized his given name, calling him �Bob� or �Bobby� or even �Robby,� nicknames that Clemente hated. He had the audacity to insist on being called by his given name, Roberto.

Does anyone have any kind of primary source? I�ve read it both ways now. This blog seems awfully odd (�The card company printed �Bob� but his autograph says �Roberto,� and he�s wearing a triumphant look, and I imagine it all as Roberto�s small act of defiance against the purveyors of cardboard gods and stale, lethally-sharp sticks of pink bubblegum. Right on, Roberto.�) with an agenda. It was commonplace to use �bob�, if Clemente minded and was offended and needed to defiantly resist Topps, why did he keep signing contracts with Topps? Is there any primary source for Topps alleged racism and slandering of him?

Peter_Spaeth · #10 09-14-2022, 09:36 PM

From the Hall of Fame website.

Another practice of the media also upset Clemente. It did not involve his teammates, but rather had to do with his heritage and ethnicity. A number of writers and broadcasters insisted on calling Clemente “Bob” or “Bobby,” instead of his given name of Roberto. Even Clemente’s baseball cards listed him as “Bob Clemente,” a practice that persisted through the 1969 Topps set. Clemente did not like this practice, an effort at Americanizing him. He felt that it was disrespectful to his Puerto Rican and Latino heritage. When members of the media interviewed him and called him Bob or Bobby directly, he would correct them. “My name is Roberto Clemente,” he said repeatedly. In spite of his complaints, the practice of referring to Clemente as Bob, especially in print, would continue throughout the 1960s.

https://baseballhall.org/discover/ba...o-superstardom

Rad_Hazard · #11 09-14-2022, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://fourcrickets.wordpress.com/2...emente%20hated.

This Bob vs. Roberto thing was always a point of contention for Clemente, whose Major League debut was in 1955. As a black person whose first language was Spanish, he faced a double dose of discrimination. The media and, obviously, the baseball card company Americanized his given name, calling him �Bob� or �Bobby� or even �Robby,� nicknames that Clemente hated. He had the audacity to insist on being called by his given name, Roberto.

You are absolutely right. I was watching an MLB game the other day and they were talking about cards and they mentioned the "Bob" name (put up example pics of the cards during the telecast) and how Clemente was offended by it and both announcers called it disgraceful.

cgjackson222 · #12 09-14-2022, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://fourcrickets.wordpress.com/2...emente%20hated.

This Bob vs. Roberto thing was always a point of contention for Clemente, whose Major League debut was in 1955. As a black person whose first language was Spanish, he faced a double dose of discrimination. The media and, obviously, the baseball card company Americanized his given name, calling him “Bob” or “Bobby” or even “Robby,” nicknames that Clemente hated. He had the audacity to insist on being called by his given name, Roberto.

I have never read that Roberto was okay with being called "Bob"
I'd be interested to see where that idea came from.

As for who was the better player--I think it is difficult to make the case that Kaline was a better all-around player. Clemente is arguably the greatest fielding right-fielder ever. Tim McCarver was right when he said about Clemente "some right fielders have rifles for arms, but he had a howitzer."

Clemente led the league in assists by a right fielder five times (1958, 1960, 1961, 1966 & 1967, finishing in the top ten six more times), in putouts by a right fielder twice (1958 & 1961, finishing in the top ten 14 more times), double plays by a right fielder three times (1955, 1961 & 1967, finishing in the top ten 9 more times). Clemente won 12 gold gloves, the most of any RF ever, and tied with Willie Mays as the most by an Outfielder. He is also tied with Jesse Barfield with the highest dWar for a right-fielder with 12.2 (yes I know dWar is flawed, but still).

Clemente was a fantastic hitter, maybe just a hair below Kaline. As someone already pointed out, Clemente's career slugging was only 5 points below Kaline's (.480 to .475) and they were similarly close in OPS and OPS+. Although Kaline clearly had an edge on Clemente in power and walks (Clemente was a bad ball hitter), Clemente's lifetime batting average was 20 points higher than Kaline's.

Let's not discount Clemente having put the Pirates on his back and winning the World Series MVP in '71.

If baseball was only about hitting, Kaline would probably have the edge. But Clemente was a much better fielder than Kaline, and overall a better player.

Peter_Spaeth · #13 09-14-2022, 10:04 PM

As mentioned, I was at the WS games that were played in Baltimore in 1971. Obviously a small sample size, but his greatness was truly on display. My dad who had grown up a fan in New York and saw lots of DiMaggio and then Mantle was very enthusiastic about him.

insidethewrapper · #14 09-14-2022, 10:04 PM

A much better fielder ? Did you ever see Kaline play Right Field ? His arm was unbelievable, a line drive throw to Home Plate. Again I think they were both great outfielders. Clemente had 100's of outfield assists. I was surprised that Kaline had more SB's.

campyfan39 · #15 09-16-2022, 08:34 PM

Agree. Clemente was awesome but is overrated. All stars ⭐️ n all genres who die young are immortalized. Even musicians who choked on their own vomit are made immortal and their talent greatly exaggerated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I�d pick Kaline, by just a hair though. They are very close by any honest assessment.

Clemente was great, and greatly overrated. The emotional narrative is strong, and he fits into a contemporary narrative, as a victim of his times and a great humanitarian with a heroic death. It doesn�t change actual performance, where one may reasonably come down on either side.

What really surprised me is that their slugging is only .005 apart.

ClementeFanOh · #16 09-16-2022, 10:26 PM

G1911 and campyfan-

So, all knowing 1911, what does "triggered" mean? It sounds like it refers
to anyone who doesn't lay down for your tortured narratives, who actually
dissents rather than acquiesces. I'm sure that's just me though...

So, to be called incredibly emotional and factually wrong, aren't insults. Oh,
that's right. All I need do is cave to your aggression, then passive
aggression, then outright hostility- not to mention your errors- and all the
unpleasant terminology goes away. You make it sound so reasonable.

You can say the arguments for Roberto aren't compelling, but that doesn't
make you right. I can tell people all day long that I'm 6 feet tall, and it
won't change the fact that I'm 5'10".

Now then, get the bolts on your neck tightened and have a chat with
someone not named Siri or Alexa, might do you some good. Your tiny
bubble reeks of sadness (and Dorito dust, I'll wager..) No insult intended,
of course!

Campyfan- you should be ashamed. So Roberto was "awesome" but
"overrated"? Are you a burner account for G1911? Geesh, what an insane
comment, you contradict yourself within a 6 word sentence! I know this will
bounce off your forehead into space, but for posterity I'll point out Roberto
was NOT a "young athlete". His bona fides CLEARLY qualified him for HOF
status after a career that was probably 5 times longer than the average
tenure for a player. As for your remark about musicians choking on their
own vomit, perhaps you should lay off the crack pipe yourself. Good Lord!!

By now I'm sure you are both "triggered", no longer able to think
logically, and hopefully headed to your safe spaces. Once you've recovered,
keep in mind I've yet to say a SINGLE negative word about Al Kaline and
recognize his excellence. Neither of you can say the same about Roberto,
and neither could you stay on the *^*$!* topic despite your self-proclaimed
knowledge of it. Trent King

G1911 · #17 09-16-2022, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911 and campyfan-

So, all knowing 1911, what does "triggered" mean? It sounds like it refers
to anyone who doesn't lay down for your tortured narratives, who actually
dissents rather than acquiesces. I'm sure that's just me though...

So, to be called incredibly emotional and factually wrong, aren't insults. Oh,
that's right. All I need do is cave to your aggression, then passive
aggression, then outright hostility- not to mention your errors- and all the
unpleasant terminology goes away. You make it sound so reasonable.

You can say the arguments for Roberto aren't compelling, but that doesn't
make you right. I can tell people all day long that I'm 6 feet tall, and it
won't change the fact that I'm 5'10".

Now then, get the bolts on your neck tightened and have a chat with
someone not named Siri or Alexa, might do you some good. Your tiny
bubble reeks of sadness (and Dorito dust, I'll wager..) No insult intended,
of course!

Campyfan- you should be ashamed. So Roberto was "awesome" but
"overrated"? Are you a burner account for G1911? Geesh, what an insane
comment, you contradict yourself within a 6 word sentence! I know this will
bounce off your forehead into space, but for posterity I'll point out Roberto
was NOT a "young athlete". His bona fides CLEARLY qualified him for HOF
status after a career that was probably 5 times longer than the average
tenure for a player. As for your remark about musicians choking on their
own vomit, perhaps you should lay off the crack pipe yourself. Good Lord!!

By now I'm sure you are both "triggered", no longer able to think
logically, and hopefully headed to your safe spaces. Once you've recovered,
keep in mind I've yet to say a SINGLE negative word about Al Kaline and
recognize his excellence. Neither of you can say the same about Roberto,
and neither could you stay on the *^*$!* topic despite your self-proclaimed
knowledge of it. Trent King

This guy is just absolutely insane and unhinged... Every thread needs one of them.

EDIT: My favorite part is the appeals to logic, while just venting his anger at 2 people, 1 of which has not even engaged with him at all. Maybe this dumbass will learn the Quote button in another decade.

Peter_Spaeth · #18 09-16-2022, 10:37 PM

Discussing Clemente's HRs and walks as I posted about before might be more interesting than a lot of invective?

G1911 · #19 09-16-2022, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Discussing Clemente's HRs and walks as I posted about before might be more interesting than a lot of invective?

Well, looking at the math isn't "logical" apparently, as it might not produce the only outcome that is allowed to even be considered.

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