NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 09-25-2020, 10:22 AM
1880nonsports's Avatar
1880nonsports 1880nonsports is offline
Hen.ry Mos.es
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,457
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cubman1941 View Post
Apparently many people have reached out to the Shoeless Joe Jackson Museum regarding their article in the last newsletter. For those who do not get the newsletter I provide this response.

"Hello and welcome to Issue 004 of Shoeless Notes, the email newsletter for the Shoeless Joe Jackson Museum and Baseball Library in Greenville, South Carolina.
After reading the last newsletter about the B18 Blankets, a handful of people reached out, unsatisfied with the notion that those pieces were originally intended to be pen wipes when they were released in 1914. An argument being made is “if they were intended to be ink blotters, then many of the blankets which have survived all these years later should be stained.” While that is a logical initial thought, it isn’t necessarily true, for a number of reasons.
Firstly, if you ruined a piece of fabric with ink (whether it had been used for its intended purpose or not), would you have kept that used, dirty fabric? Most likely no, you would have thrown it away. It would be like finding a Kleenex package in 100 years, and saying “there’s no way these were intended to be used for people to blow their nose… all of the ones here in this package are completely clean!” That would be because the ones that were used for their intended purpose had been discarded.
Secondly, there are plenty of examples of B18s which have stains. Some stains are bigger than others. Some stains are darker than others. But very few B18 examples have survived in pristine condition 100+ years later. A quick eBay search shows many examples with stains of some kind and in varying sizes. Whether those stains were caused by ink from a pen is clearly up for debate.
In addition to the ones which have stains, there are many examples today which have been faded. Is the fading because they were subjected to sunlight? Maybe, though I’m not aware of many blankets or pillowcases that are faded from sun damage since blankets and pillowcases are primarily used indoors. Another possibility is that there was an attempt to clean an ink-stained B18 so it could be re-used, and the cleaning chemicals used to remove the ink also helped fade the print on the piece. That’s just a theory, obviously, but it seems entirely plausible to me.
Whatever the case, it is clear that age, alone, does not fade the print because there are hundreds of examples of B18s today which still have bold, dark images. I had always been under the impression that the B18s were intended to be sewn to create blankets or pillowcases or quilts ..., so the John Thorn “discovery” came as a shock to me, too. But just because this potentially new information turns our preconceived notions on their head, doesn’t mean it’s impossible for it to be true. There was a time when everyone alive was absolutely positive that the earth was flat, too.
There is a lesson to be learned from all of this, though. And that is a lesson that can be applied to any research, whether it’s about Joe Jackson, about baseball cards, or about anything else: trusting just one source, no matter how reliable that source may normally be, can be a dangerous thing. "
Sorry cubman - oh that what we wish to be were always true - there is NO CHANCE these were issued to be used as pen wipes. PERIOD. You can use a baseball to plug a hole in a dam but that doesn't mean it was meant to be.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 10-21-2022, 01:42 PM
rootsearcher60 rootsearcher60 is offline
Michael S
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 175
Default I'm a little late in the game, but.......

I found this ad showing that the B18s were advertised to be used for display, and to make pillow cases. They were referred to as blankets. What I find interesting is that they were given away with Sovereign Cigarettes. This ad is from the Virginia-Pilot and the Norfolk (VA) Landmark, 14 July, 1914.

Michael
Attached Images
File Type: jpg clip_111740486.jpg (209.1 KB, 290 views)

Last edited by rootsearcher60; 10-21-2022 at 01:45 PM. Reason: Correct name of newspaper
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 10-21-2022, 01:58 PM
canjond's Avatar
canjond canjond is offline
Jon Canfield
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,573
Default

This is very cool! I’ve always like B18s. One of my favorite items is this uncut “sheet” of them (really 3 strips).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 83157431-2217-4117-BEEB-546CE290C1CA.jpg (178.2 KB, 284 views)
__________________
For information on baseball-related cigarette and tobacco packs, visit www.baseballandtobacco.com.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 10-21-2022, 02:42 PM
mrreality68's Avatar
mrreality68 mrreality68 is offline
Jeffrey Kuhr
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 5,758
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rootsearcher60 View Post
I found this ad showing that the B18s were advertised to be used for display, and to make pillow cases. They were referred to as blankets. What I find interesting is that they were given away with Sovereign Cigarettes. This ad is from the Virginia-Pilot and the Norfolk (VA) Landmark, 14 July, 1914.

Michael
Wow Great Find and Great information

Remember to send it to the Joe Jackson Museum so they can improve their Response

Thanks
Attached Images
File Type: jpg joejacksonblanket.jpg (163.5 KB, 273 views)
__________________
Thanks all

Jeff Kuhr

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144250058@N05/

Looking for
1920 Heading Home Ruth Cards
1917-20 Felix Mendelssohn Babe Ruth
1921 Frederick Foto Ruth
Joe Jackson Cards 1916 Advertising Backs
1910 Old Mills Joe Jackson
1914 Boston Garter Joe Jackson
1915 Cracker Jack Joe Jackson
1911 Pinkerton Joe Jackson
Shoeless Joe Jackson Autograph
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 10-21-2022, 02:58 PM
brianp-beme's Avatar
brianp-beme brianp-beme is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rootsearcher60 View Post
I found this ad showing that the B18s were advertised to be used for display, and to make pillow cases. They were referred to as blankets. What I find interesting is that they were given away with Sovereign Cigarettes. This ad is from the Virginia-Pilot and the Norfolk (VA) Landmark, 14 July, 1914.

Michael
Nice ad. What everyone is missing, because it is printed impossibly small at the bottom of the ad, to the point of being invisible, is this:

*Originally intended as ink blotters


Brian
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 10-21-2022, 03:20 PM
mrreality68's Avatar
mrreality68 mrreality68 is offline
Jeffrey Kuhr
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 5,758
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianp-beme View Post
Nice ad. What everyone is missing, because it is printed impossibly small at the bottom of the ad, to the point of being invisible, is this:

*Originally intended as ink blotters


Brian
Sorry I missed that because it was cover with an ink blotch
__________________
Thanks all

Jeff Kuhr

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144250058@N05/

Looking for
1920 Heading Home Ruth Cards
1917-20 Felix Mendelssohn Babe Ruth
1921 Frederick Foto Ruth
Joe Jackson Cards 1916 Advertising Backs
1910 Old Mills Joe Jackson
1914 Boston Garter Joe Jackson
1915 Cracker Jack Joe Jackson
1911 Pinkerton Joe Jackson
Shoeless Joe Jackson Autograph
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 10-21-2022, 03:56 PM
BobC BobC is offline
Bob C.
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,276
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rootsearcher60 View Post
I found this ad showing that the B18s were advertised to be used for display, and to make pillow cases. They were referred to as blankets. What I find interesting is that they were given away with Sovereign Cigarettes. This ad is from the Virginia-Pilot and the Norfolk (VA) Landmark, 14 July, 1914.

Michael
Great find and info as well. Never believed they were intended as ink blotters either, especially with that theory coming from a single source, without any real collaborative evidence from the then contemporary period to back it up, like this ad you found which contradicts the ink blotter theory. Have had a small quilt made with B18s for years myself. The B18s on my quilt are somewhat faded, which I've always attributed to them having been washed over and over, as opposed to exposure to sunlight or some other chemicals. My vote is soap and water as a main fading factor. Of course, sunlight could be involved as well if such an item were always hung outside in daylight to dry on a clothesline after being washed.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 10-22-2022, 11:32 AM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is online now
Hank Thomas
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,802
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rootsearcher60 View Post
I found this ad showing that the B18s were advertised to be used for display, and to make pillow cases. They were referred to as blankets. What I find interesting is that they were given away with Sovereign Cigarettes. This ad is from the Virginia-Pilot and the Norfolk (VA) Landmark, 14 July, 1914. Michael
Great find! I, too, never bought into the ink blotter theory, thinking why would you make such beautiful things just to wipe your ink off with? But with the picture of the Sovereign packs they came, now I'm wondering about the long-held theory that the staining typically found on them came from being wrapped around chewing tobacco? One would assume they would have been packed outside the wrapping between the box and the cigarettes, according to the picture, and therefore not exposed to any of the tobacco. They were definitely folded in quarters whatever the packing method. As for display, I don't know if anyone connected with the project had this in mind at the time, and it could be just the nine Washington B-18s that lend themselves to it so perfectly, but when I got my collection of the eight beautiful commons in a David Festberg auction several decades ago and laid them out with my mint Wajo, this arrangement, with every player on this special team in D.C. baseball history in their proper position, flashed into my brain almost immediately.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SAM_0495 (640x480).jpg (42.4 KB, 226 views)

Last edited by Hankphenom; 10-22-2022 at 11:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 10-22-2022, 01:04 PM
CobbSpikedMe's Avatar
CobbSpikedMe CobbSpikedMe is offline
Andrew Hunt00n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Belle Mead, NJ
Posts: 2,237
Default

So were they a Sovereign or Egytienne Staights premium? I thought they were believed to be packaged inside Egytienne cigarette packages all this time. Some of them even still have part of the seal attached to them that was used to package them with the tobacco. There must have been two ways to acquire them now.



.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Egyptieen Straghts.jpg (94.5 KB, 220 views)
__________________
I'm always looking for t206's with purple numbers stamped on the back like the one in my avatar.

The Great T206 Back Stamp Project: Click Here
My Online Trading Site: Click Here
Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com
My Humble Blog: Click Here
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 10-22-2022, 01:30 PM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is online now
Hank Thomas
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,802
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe View Post
So were they a Sovereign or Egyptienne Staights premium? I thought they were believed to be packaged inside Egytienne cigarette packages all this time. Some of them even still have part of the seal attached to them that was used to package them with the tobacco. There must have been two ways to acquire them now.
I Hadn't heard that before about the Egyptiennes. Definitely Sovereign now, what's the evidence for Egyptiennes? I have seen the seals or parts of seals before, but don't remember if there's any clues there.

Last edited by Hankphenom; 10-22-2022 at 01:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 10-22-2022, 02:47 PM
CobbSpikedMe's Avatar
CobbSpikedMe CobbSpikedMe is offline
Andrew Hunt00n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Belle Mead, NJ
Posts: 2,237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
I Hadn't heard that before about the Egyptiennes. Definitely Sovereign now, what's the evidence for Egyptiennes? I have seen the seals or parts of seals before, but don't remember if there's any clues there.
Hi Hank,

I thought this was fairly common knowledge about the blankets. Here are several places where it is mentioned.

https://prewarcards.com/2018/11/27/b...ts-cigarettes/
https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-b18-blankets/
https://oldcardboard.com/o/b/b18/b18.asp?cardsetID=1038

I've never heard anyone doubt the Egytienne connection after 20+ years of collecting prewar. I don't know where the connection original came from but imagine there are ads that support it somewwhere.


Edited to add: This is also mentioned earlier in this very thread from 2020.

.
__________________
I'm always looking for t206's with purple numbers stamped on the back like the one in my avatar.

The Great T206 Back Stamp Project: Click Here
My Online Trading Site: Click Here
Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com
My Humble Blog: Click Here

Last edited by CobbSpikedMe; 10-22-2022 at 03:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 10-22-2022, 03:51 PM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is online now
Hank Thomas
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,802
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe View Post
Hi Hank,
I thought this was fairly common knowledge about the blankets. Here are several places where it is mentioned. I've never heard anyone doubt the Egytienne connection after 20+ years of collecting prewar. I don't know where the connection original came from but imagine there are ads that support it somewwhere.Edited to add: This is also mentioned earlier in this very thread from 2020.
It could well be that I don't remember seeing or reading about the source, as I said I thought the word was that the staining found on so many blankets was from being wrapped around chewing tobacco, and that was clearly wrong. Sovereign and Egyptienne were both American Tobacco Co. products, so that's a possible connection, and Egyptienne did put many different "rugs," silks, etc., in their boxes, the shape of which might also be a clue. It's just that I would want to see something other than hearsay or word of mouth before I'd be willing to say that B-18s were distributed anywhere other than in packs of Sovereign cigarettes, which we now have proof of.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 10-22-2022, 04:00 PM
CobbSpikedMe's Avatar
CobbSpikedMe CobbSpikedMe is offline
Andrew Hunt00n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Belle Mead, NJ
Posts: 2,237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
It could well be that I don't remember seeing or reading about the source, as I said I thought the word was that the staining found on so many blankets was from being wrapped around chewing tobacco, and that was clearly wrong. Sovereign and Egyptienne were both American Tobacco Co. products, so that's a possible connection, and Egyptienne did put many different "rugs," silks, etc., in their boxes, the shape of which might also be a clue. It's just that I would want to see something other than hearsay or word of mouth before I'd be willing to say that B-18s were distributed anywhere other than in packs of Sovereign cigarettes, which we now have proof of.
Fair enough Hank. It's just been accepted for so long that they were Egytienne Straights premiums that I had to mention it. I'd also like to see more concrete evidence of it myself now.



.
__________________
I'm always looking for t206's with purple numbers stamped on the back like the one in my avatar.

The Great T206 Back Stamp Project: Click Here
My Online Trading Site: Click Here
Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com
My Humble Blog: Click Here
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 10-22-2022, 04:28 PM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is online now
Hank Thomas
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,802
Default

Thanks for the links. I had no idea how rare and valuable the red infield variations are. I'd love to know the story behind those.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 10-22-2022, 04:33 PM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is online now
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,832
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe View Post
Fair enough Hank. It's just been accepted for so long that they were Egytienne Straights premiums that I had to mention it. I'd also like to see more concrete evidence of it myself now.
.
Lew Lipset wrote about this 40 years ago in Vol. 3 of his Encyclopedia. With props to Lew, his write-up on the set included this:

"Recently [before 1983] a Cleveland collector discovered a box of B18s, all folded with the entire strip intact. The B18 was in a small envelope and the strip reads 'an Attractive Novelty Attached to This Package'. According to the writing on the box, the brand name associated with B18 is Egyptienne Straights Cigarettes, which solves a long unanswered question".

FWIW, when I did some online research of old newspapers, I saw an ad for that brand advertising a tie clasp and later an American flag, but no ads for the B18s, at least in 1914.
__________________
“Hypocrisy is a tribute vice pays to virtue” - Francois de La Rochefoucauld.

If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 10-22-2022, 04:47 PM
CobbSpikedMe's Avatar
CobbSpikedMe CobbSpikedMe is offline
Andrew Hunt00n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Belle Mead, NJ
Posts: 2,237
Default

So did the Egytienne connection start with Lipset? Still would like to see an ad showing the blankets with this brand.


.
__________________
I'm always looking for t206's with purple numbers stamped on the back like the one in my avatar.

The Great T206 Back Stamp Project: Click Here
My Online Trading Site: Click Here
Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com
My Humble Blog: Click Here
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 10-23-2022, 10:26 PM
canjond's Avatar
canjond canjond is offline
Jon Canfield
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,573
Default

It seems pretty logical to me that based on the ad above, the B18s were NOT attached to Sovereign cigarette packs but were instead handed out by dealers at point of sale. Just look at the fine print at the bottom that instructs dealers to get a supply of the B18s.

As others have mentioned, there are B18s with remnants of a blue band on them, so it seems most logical to me these were still adhered to a brand of cigarettes in addition to Sovereign, and Egyptienne Straights definitely seems most plausible given the Lipset article and the specificity around the packaging.
__________________
For information on baseball-related cigarette and tobacco packs, visit www.baseballandtobacco.com.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 10-24-2022, 04:39 AM
mrreality68's Avatar
mrreality68 mrreality68 is offline
Jeffrey Kuhr
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 5,758
Default

SO who got the Blankets from REA Auction last night?
__________________
Thanks all

Jeff Kuhr

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144250058@N05/

Looking for
1920 Heading Home Ruth Cards
1917-20 Felix Mendelssohn Babe Ruth
1921 Frederick Foto Ruth
Joe Jackson Cards 1916 Advertising Backs
1910 Old Mills Joe Jackson
1914 Boston Garter Joe Jackson
1915 Cracker Jack Joe Jackson
1911 Pinkerton Joe Jackson
Shoeless Joe Jackson Autograph
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 10-24-2022, 10:05 AM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is online now
Hank Thomas
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,802
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by canjond View Post
It seems pretty logical to me that based on the ad above, the B18s were NOT attached to Sovereign cigarette packs but were instead handed out by dealers at point of sale. Just look at the fine print at the bottom that instructs dealers to get a supply of the B18s. As others have mentioned, there are B18s with remnants of a blue band on them, so it seems most logical to me these were still adhered to a brand of cigarettes in addition to Sovereign, and Egyptienne Straights definitely seems most plausible given the Lipset article and the specificity around the packaging.
Good catch to point out that they were not part of the packaging, but ordered separately. And I'm wondering if "dealers" (funny they called them that) had to buy a supply of Sovereigns in order to get blankets, the ad doesn't say anything about paying for them. It also seems they are trusting dealers to only give them away to purchasers of Sovereigns, at least during this promotional cycle. I wouldn't call color variations of the wrapping dispositive of this offer having been applied to other brands, and would have to see an ad of this nature for Egyptiennes before I would jump on that bandwagon. I love these mysteries!
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 10-24-2022, 08:32 PM
1880nonsports's Avatar
1880nonsports 1880nonsports is offline
Hen.ry Mos.es
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,457
Default wow pure idiocy

what pure bullshit. suck it up and admit John jumped the gun. Experts in THE FIELD OF S/F/B tried to give JOHN THE BASEBALL HISTORIAN some pointed advice regarding his pure SUPPOSITION based on a contemporary reporting by a single person. Awwww. He found a B18 with an ink stain!!!!! Stop the presses. Really sad......

I guess it was OK the original person said "cigar" box when it's a "cigarette" package. Pick the elements you think support the pen wipe hypothesis for me again? All three suggestions were ridiculous.

"he learned something that possibly less than 10 people currently living knew. He learned what the 1914 B18 Blankets were originally intended to be."

WAIT. He now knows something that only he knows as the other guy is dead. Works for me.

Can't believe how out of shape this has gotten me. Too much caffine?

Last edited by 1880nonsports; 10-24-2022 at 09:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 10-24-2022, 08:34 PM
1880nonsports's Avatar
1880nonsports 1880nonsports is offline
Hen.ry Mos.es
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,457
Default Btw

Show me some blotters without the name of a company. They were big in the 40's. B18 slightly earlier - maybe they didn't understand the concept of putting one's name on them......

well I just read the secondary response again. I give up. Serious horseshit.

Last edited by 1880nonsports; 10-24-2022 at 09:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 10-25-2022, 06:46 AM
CobbSpikedMe's Avatar
CobbSpikedMe CobbSpikedMe is offline
Andrew Hunt00n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Belle Mead, NJ
Posts: 2,237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1880nonsports View Post
what pure bullshit. suck it up and admit John jumped the gun. Experts in THE FIELD OF S/F/B tried to give JOHN THE BASEBALL HISTORIAN some pointed advice regarding his pure SUPPOSITION based on a contemporary reporting by a single person. Awwww. He found a B18 with an ink stain!!!!! Stop the presses. Really sad......

I guess it was OK the original person said "cigar" box when it's a "cigarette" package. Pick the elements you think support the pen wipe hypothesis for me again? All three suggestions were ridiculous.

"he learned something that possibly less than 10 people currently living knew. He learned what the 1914 B18 Blankets were originally intended to be."

WAIT. He now knows something that only he knows as the other guy is dead. Works for me.

Can't believe how out of shape this has gotten me. Too much caffine?


Love it Henry! Not too much caffeine at all, just pure enthusiasm.




.
__________________
I'm always looking for t206's with purple numbers stamped on the back like the one in my avatar.

The Great T206 Back Stamp Project: Click Here
My Online Trading Site: Click Here
Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com
My Humble Blog: Click Here
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 10-25-2022, 09:01 AM
Orioles1954 Orioles1954 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,267
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1880nonsports View Post
what pure bullshit. suck it up and admit John jumped the gun. Experts in THE FIELD OF S/F/B tried to give JOHN THE BASEBALL HISTORIAN some pointed advice regarding his pure SUPPOSITION based on a contemporary reporting by a single person. Awwww. He found a B18 with an ink stain!!!!! Stop the presses. Really sad......

I guess it was OK the original person said "cigar" box when it's a "cigarette" package. Pick the elements you think support the pen wipe hypothesis for me again? All three suggestions were ridiculous.

"he learned something that possibly less than 10 people currently living knew. He learned what the 1914 B18 Blankets were originally intended to be."

WAIT. He now knows something that only he knows as the other guy is dead. Works for me.

Can't believe how out of shape this has gotten me. Too much caffine?

Thanks for differentiating felt and flannel. I've been calling them felts forever and now know otherwise.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 10-25-2022, 09:01 AM
Orioles1954 Orioles1954 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,267
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1880nonsports View Post
what pure bullshit. suck it up and admit John jumped the gun. Experts in THE FIELD OF S/F/B tried to give JOHN THE BASEBALL HISTORIAN some pointed advice regarding his pure SUPPOSITION based on a contemporary reporting by a single person. Awwww. He found a B18 with an ink stain!!!!! Stop the presses. Really sad......

I guess it was OK the original person said "cigar" box when it's a "cigarette" package. Pick the elements you think support the pen wipe hypothesis for me again? All three suggestions were ridiculous.

"he learned something that possibly less than 10 people currently living knew. He learned what the 1914 B18 Blankets were originally intended to be."

WAIT. He now knows something that only he knows as the other guy is dead. Works for me.

Can't believe how out of shape this has gotten me. Too much caffine?

Thanks for differentiating felt and flannel. I've been calling them felts forever and now know otherwise.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 10-26-2022, 11:45 AM
ValKehl's Avatar
ValKehl ValKehl is offline
Val Kehl
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Manassas, VA (DC suburb)
Posts: 3,672
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
Great find! I, too, never bought into the ink blotter theory, thinking why would you make such beautiful things just to wipe your ink off with? But with the picture of the Sovereign packs they came, now I'm wondering about the long-held theory that the staining typically found on them came from being wrapped around chewing tobacco? One would assume they would have been packed outside the wrapping between the box and the cigarettes, according to the picture, and therefore not exposed to any of the tobacco. They were definitely folded in quarters whatever the packing method. As for display, I don't know if anyone connected with the project had this in mind at the time, and it could be just the nine Washington B-18s that lend themselves to it so perfectly, but when I got my collection of the eight beautiful commons in a David Festberg auction several decades ago and laid them out with my mint Wajo, this arrangement, with every player on this special team in D.C. baseball history in their proper position, flashed into my brain almost immediately.
Hank, your framed rendition of the Washington-player B18s is a gorgeous piece. I am aware that you parted ways with much/most of your collection some years ago, but I hope you retained this lovely piece.
__________________
Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 10-26-2022, 12:44 PM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is online now
Hank Thomas
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,802
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValKehl View Post
Hank, your framed rendition of the Washington-player B18s is a gorgeous piece. I am aware that you parted ways with much/most of your collection some years ago, but I hope you retained this lovely piece.
Thanks, Val. Since Alan Feinberg framed it like this some 25 years ago, it's been at or near the top of my list of favorite pieces. Great team, great issue, so many special features to them both, and as you put it, just gorgeous to look at. I have sold a lot over the years, as you know, but have kept a number of my favorites, some of which made the move with me to Winchester. These pictures (starting at post #771) are slightly dated, but not much, and don't include my D.C./WaJo vintage pin collections, but do show most of the things I haven't been able to bring myself to part with over the years.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...131800&page=16

Last edited by Hankphenom; 10-26-2022 at 12:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 10-26-2022, 01:42 PM
ValKehl's Avatar
ValKehl ValKehl is offline
Val Kehl
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Manassas, VA (DC suburb)
Posts: 3,672
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
Thanks, Val. Since Alan Feinberg framed it like this some 25 years ago, it's been at or near the top of my list of favorite pieces. Great team, great issue, so many special features to them both, and as you put it, just gorgeous to look at. I have sold a lot over the years, as you know, but have kept a number of my favorites, some of which made the move with me to Winchester. These pictures (starting at post #771) are slightly dated, but not much, and don't include my D.C./WaJo vintage pin collections, but do show most of the things I haven't been able to bring myself to part with over the years.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...131800&page=16
Hank, many thanks for the link to the pics and commentary you posted back in 2020. Because my memory is so pathetic, I greatly enjoyed seeing and reading them again, as much as if I hadn't seem/read them before.
__________________
Seeking very scarce/rare cards for my Sam Rice master collection, e.g., E210 York Caramel Type 2 (upgrade), 1931 W502, W504 (upgrade), W572 sepia, W573, W575-1 E. S. Rice version, 1922 Haffner's Bread, 1922 Keating Candy, 1922 Witmor Candy Type 2 (vertical back), 1926 Sports Co. of Am. with ad & blank backs. Also T216 Kotton "NGO" card of Hugh Jennings. Also 1917 Merchants Bakery & Weil Baking cards of WaJo.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 10-29-2022, 07:08 PM
yanks87 yanks87 is offline
Brian K
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: PNW
Posts: 372
Default From the Research Department - aka My Dad

I’ve been following the discussion about B18 felts and who may have distributed them. The recent post showing felts as a give-away with Sovereign cigarettes indicates that tobacco sellers in Norfolk, Virginia can pick up felts to be given away with the purchase of Sovereign cigarettes is indicated in the lower part of the ad.
Some folks then wondered if the attribution of them being given away with Egyptienne Straights was incorrect or needed a better provenance. Attached is a picture of a sticker on the back of a felt with the Factory number of 2153, Third District, State of New York (central Manhattan Island). Also pictured is an ongoing auction for an ‘early’ box of Egyptienne Straights, and on the back of the box is the remainder of a tax stamp and the attribution to Factory number 2153, Second District, State of New York (Lower Manhattan Island).
So, it would appear that the felts (folded to quarter size) were attached to the square Egyptienne Straights box as stated on several posts and information articles, which probably represents the bulk of the felts that were given away. The recently discovered ad for Sovereign cigarettes felts to be given away by Norfolk tobacco shops appears to be another source of the felts. Whether there were other locations where felts were made available to tobacco dealers selling American Tobacco Company cigarettes remains to be another quest(ion).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2022-10-29 at 6.04.04 PM.jpg (48.2 KB, 57 views)
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 10-29-2022, 07:09 PM
yanks87 yanks87 is offline
Brian K
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: PNW
Posts: 372
Default continued

Going further down the rabbit-hole, from: Cigarette silks, cigar flannels and ribbons in quilts - Antique Quilt History, there was a discussion about tobacco ‘flannels’ – author indicated that the material was flannel, not felt. From the article:
“Another popular textile insert or premium was the tobacco flannel. These were made of a cotton flannel fabric and printed in many designs, again in themes similar to the themes used on the cigarette cards. Popular subjects were flags of all the different countries of the world and athletes participating in various sports.
As with the silks these flannels were distributed in or on, cigarette and tobacco products, with the larger flannels available in the premium catalogs, and sent to consumers in exchange for coupons, (which were also distributed in tobacco packaging.)
Tobacco flannels are sometimes referred to as “cigar felts”, and this is probably a misnomer, because it is not clear how, or if, they are associated with cigars. The inference is that the flannels were inserted into the boxes of cigars. But according to cigar box collector and historian Tony Hymen, there is no reason that they should be called “cigar felts”.
One might also question why they are called felts when they are obviously made from flannel. One advertisement does mention a “felt”, but the photo in the ad shows what appears to be the small rug, which is usually made up of a velveteen type pile or made of flannel. Perhaps this is a simple example of a word’s popular meaning changing over a century of years.
Another tobacco insert or premium is the small rug or carpet, which is sometimes confused with the flannels. J. R. Burdick in his book The American Card Catalog, catalogs the flannels and rugs separately, noting that the rug has a fringe and the flannel does not.

Rugs were distributed in the same way as the flannels, in or on cigarette or tobacco packaging. One advertisement for Egyptienne Straights cigarettes states that the consumer will receive one rug in each package, plus a free rug from the tobacco shop dealer, “to induce you to try these wonderfully good cigarettes”. The dealer was instructed to apply to the manufacturer for the supply of free rugs so they would have them on hand, in the shop, enabling them to participate in the promotion.”
The above section (in bold) is the same approach that was shown in the Sovereign ad for baseball felts (flannels). So, it would appear that whether it was a baseball felt or a rug, supplying free flannels or rugs to tobacco dealers was a standard practice within the American Tobacco Company.
Even further down the rabbit hole – the article displayed the back of a rug which has a stamp for Egyptienne Straights showing the Factory number 2153, and the 3rd District of New York.

All similar to the baseball tobacco felts mentioned earlier in this post.
Attached Images
File Type: png Screen Shot 2022-10-29 at 6.04.22 PM.png (70.9 KB, 58 views)
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 10-29-2022, 08:06 PM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is online now
Hank Thomas
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,802
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yanks87 View Post
I’ve been following the discussion about B18 felts and who may have distributed them. The recent post showing felts as a give-away with Sovereign cigarettes indicates that tobacco sellers in Norfolk, Virginia can pick up felts to be given away with the purchase of Sovereign cigarettes is indicated in the lower part of the ad.
Some folks then wondered if the attribution of them being given away with Egyptienne Straights was incorrect or needed a better provenance. Attached is a picture of a sticker on the back of a felt with the Factory number of 2153, Third District, State of New York (central Manhattan Island). Also pictured is an ongoing auction for an ‘early’ box of Egyptienne Straights, and on the back of the box is the remainder of a tax stamp and the attribution to Factory number 2153, Second District, State of New York (Lower Manhattan Island). So, it would appear that the felts (folded to quarter size) were attached to the square Egyptienne Straights box as stated on several posts and information articles, which probably represents the bulk of the felts that were given away. The recently discovered ad for Sovereign cigarettes felts to be given away by Norfolk tobacco shops appears to be another source of the felts. Whether there were other locations where felts were made available to tobacco dealers selling American Tobacco Company cigarettes remains to be another quest(ion).
So the sticker wrapped around the box, holding the folded blanket to the back of the box, accounts for those found with part of the sticker still attached? And perhaps also explaining the prevalence of staining coming either from the stickers or from exposure of the blankets to the elements from being on the outside of the box.

Last edited by Hankphenom; 10-30-2022 at 09:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 10-29-2022, 09:14 PM
Exhibitman's Avatar
Exhibitman Exhibitman is offline
Ad@m W@r$h@w
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank
Posts: 13,534
Default

Some of the large American flag "B" novelties are really striking.

__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true.

https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/

Or not...
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 10-29-2022, 10:51 PM
BobC BobC is offline
Bob C.
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,276
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yanks87 View Post
Going further down the rabbit-hole, from: Cigarette silks, cigar flannels and ribbons in quilts - Antique Quilt History, there was a discussion about tobacco ‘flannels’ – author indicated that the material was flannel, not felt. From the article:
“Another popular textile insert or premium was the tobacco flannel. These were made of a cotton flannel fabric and printed in many designs, again in themes similar to the themes used on the cigarette cards. Popular subjects were flags of all the different countries of the world and athletes participating in various sports.
As with the silks these flannels were distributed in or on, cigarette and tobacco products, with the larger flannels available in the premium catalogs, and sent to consumers in exchange for coupons, (which were also distributed in tobacco packaging.)
Tobacco flannels are sometimes referred to as “cigar felts”, and this is probably a misnomer, because it is not clear how, or if, they are associated with cigars. The inference is that the flannels were inserted into the boxes of cigars. But according to cigar box collector and historian Tony Hymen, there is no reason that they should be called “cigar felts”.
One might also question why they are called felts when they are obviously made from flannel. One advertisement does mention a “felt”, but the photo in the ad shows what appears to be the small rug, which is usually made up of a velveteen type pile or made of flannel. Perhaps this is a simple example of a word’s popular meaning changing over a century of years.
Another tobacco insert or premium is the small rug or carpet, which is sometimes confused with the flannels. J. R. Burdick in his book The American Card Catalog, catalogs the flannels and rugs separately, noting that the rug has a fringe and the flannel does not.

Rugs were distributed in the same way as the flannels, in or on cigarette or tobacco packaging. One advertisement for Egyptienne Straights cigarettes states that the consumer will receive one rug in each package, plus a free rug from the tobacco shop dealer, “to induce you to try these wonderfully good cigarettes”. The dealer was instructed to apply to the manufacturer for the supply of free rugs so they would have them on hand, in the shop, enabling them to participate in the promotion.”
The above section (in bold) is the same approach that was shown in the Sovereign ad for baseball felts (flannels). So, it would appear that whether it was a baseball felt or a rug, supplying free flannels or rugs to tobacco dealers was a standard practice within the American Tobacco Company.
Even further down the rabbit hole – the article displayed the back of a rug which has a stamp for Egyptienne Straights showing the Factory number 2153, and the 3rd District of New York.

All similar to the baseball tobacco felts mentioned earlier in this post.
Interesting read and info regarding the misnaming of flannels as felts. One easy way to possibly show (and actually feel) the difference is to get a B18 flannel blanket, and a BF2 Ferguson Bakery felt pennant. Feeling and looking at them immediately shows the differences between those two materials. Always figured the confusion originated from the designation by Burdick of both issues as in the BF category, and that category initially being attributed to items made of felt. And then by extension everyone just sort of erroneously assumed everything else in the BF category was also made of felt as well.

Similar situation exists with regard to the cigarette silks I believe. Burdick gave these items an S category classification. So pretty much everything in the S category is referred to, and considered made of, silk. However, in the case of the S74-1 baseball silks and S72-1 actress silks that came with a paper advertisement backing on them, in the printing on the backs it clearly states these items are made from satin, and not pure silk. But everyone still refers to them as silks because of Burdick's categorization.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Multi purpose Scanner Mickey Mays Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980) 0 03-20-2017 09:41 AM
Did the Cubs lose the 1918 WS on purpose? greenmonster66 Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 8 04-21-2011 06:57 PM
WOW! This seems to defeat the purpose of getting scum booted from ebay! Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 13 04-21-2008 12:15 PM
what is the purpose of this? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 04-26-2007 11:26 AM
What Was The Purpose For Factory Stamps? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 1 01-20-2007 07:06 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:16 PM.


ebay GSB