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#1
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Amazing 1989 Fleer Bill Ripken find
Just got this bad boy in the mail today. It is pretty much the rarest of the rare. From all the top 89 Fleer Bill Ripken collectors it is considered the 3rd to 5th at the most known example of this version. It is known as the CS3 or Circle Scribble 3 version. I am beyond happy to have it.
Last edited by bnorth; 07-16-2022 at 11:49 AM. |
#2
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Congrats Ben!
Billy will be famous forever, but not for his field and batting prowess. My wife got me a signed FF very many years ago. That is as far as I went chasing the many variations. Cheers, Butch
__________________
Man proposes and God disposes. U.S. Grant, July 1, 1885 Completed: 1969 - 2000 Topps Baseball Sets and Traded Sets. Senators and Frank Howard fan. I collect Topps baseball variations -- I can quit anytime I want to.....I DON'T WANT TO. |
#3
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Cool, post a pic of it. Did he do his best to cover up the FF? I know he did that on several. I have a P4 Diamond Willy Dipken he personalized to me.
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#4
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I will do that but it will be a couple of months before I can get to it. We are packing to move and a great deal of my 'stuff' is boxed!
I'll be sure to get you a picture later this year. Cheers, Butch
__________________
Man proposes and God disposes. U.S. Grant, July 1, 1885 Completed: 1969 - 2000 Topps Baseball Sets and Traded Sets. Senators and Frank Howard fan. I collect Topps baseball variations -- I can quit anytime I want to.....I DON'T WANT TO. |
#5
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Here is my only Bill Ripken auto. I can't remember what awesome forum member went out of their way and got this for me but I really appreciated it. |
#6
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Great pickup. I was 10 years old at the time of its release, and I still get a kick out of this card and the multiple variations 33 years after the fact.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#7
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Great card Ben. Good luck with your sale.
Most "Circle Scribbles" have the factory sawcuts. To find one without the cut is Rare! |
#8
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Congrats!
__________________
- Justin D. Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander. Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol. |
#9
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Congrats Ben, I know how happy you must be
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#10
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Extremely happy. More happy to have found a new to the hobby example and to own and hopefully soon to have owned it. I have owned most of the big cards in the hobby but I am a high end card renter. I own them for a while and sell them to own another big card.
Card renting lets me own/have owned some amazing cards over the last 35 or so years with little to no out of pocket expense. |
#11
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endless variations in 89 fleer
__________________
EBAY STORE: ROOKIE-PARADE |
#12
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Recently picked a CS3 SC up to add to the collection.
I will add photos soon, but absolutely stoked to get this in the collection. |
#13
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Nice, post a pic for sure. I think I started a thread when I found my SC3 SC a few years ago.
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#14
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On the topic of scribble versions, I am familiar with the F, F-loop, No F and now this but are there more variants to the scribble itself? I seem to recall an almost legible F FACE visible through the black cover or am I making this up?
__________________
JunkWaxGems - Showcasing the rare, little-known and sometimes mysterious cards of the 1980s and 1990s. https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ Oddball, promos and variations:http://www.comc.com/Users/JunkWaxGems,sr |
#15
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There is a very weird only know scribble version I found several years ago. It is also pictured on the site as Jon owns it now. There is also a white scribble version that is way more rare than the 3 scribbles you are familiar with but nothing like the super rare circle scribble cards. |
#16
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__________________
JunkWaxGems - Showcasing the rare, little-known and sometimes mysterious cards of the 1980s and 1990s. https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ Oddball, promos and variations:http://www.comc.com/Users/JunkWaxGems,sr |
#17
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Here is a decent grouping of the 4 "CS" varieties. Very Rare cards!
Circular pattern with different levels of coverage. Probably an early FF correction by Fleer. Maybe after the White Scribble but before the regular basic Black Scribbles or Black Boxes. |
#18
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Your site is really great. Im big on variations that went through many stages and I'd assume the 89 Ripken is the king of it. The card I'm trying to recall would be a standard black scribble, not circular, and the black coverup is not as dark as the F*** FACE words. Does this ring any bells?
__________________
JunkWaxGems - Showcasing the rare, little-known and sometimes mysterious cards of the 1980s and 1990s. https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ Oddball, promos and variations:http://www.comc.com/Users/JunkWaxGems,sr |
#19
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Based on my findings and a few others, if this were the accurate timeline, this would have been a VERY QUICK & short duration correction attempt by Fleer.
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#20
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Scribble w/F showing, Loop or Partial F and the Light Loop or No F version. |
#21
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If you are thinking of a specific card, this may be what you are identifying? A Scribble w/F with a lighter mark. The FF is visible underneath. This is one of those versions within a version. Not sure if I've seen another one quite like it.
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#22
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Wow, I love this one! What a cool card!
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#23
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I am going off memory here but yes, this is what I am trying to recall. Except, my memory has the FF words in black, not magenta as shown in your example. But same idea, a standard black scribble but with a lighter/opaque coverup and the FF words visible beneath it.
__________________
JunkWaxGems - Showcasing the rare, little-known and sometimes mysterious cards of the 1980s and 1990s. https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ Oddball, promos and variations:http://www.comc.com/Users/JunkWaxGems,sr |
#24
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It also could have been something someone altered. I have seen a ton of different alterations done to these cards. |
#25
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#26
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__________________
JunkWaxGems - Showcasing the rare, little-known and sometimes mysterious cards of the 1980s and 1990s. https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ Oddball, promos and variations:http://www.comc.com/Users/JunkWaxGems,sr |
#27
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Picture, not the greatest, but here it is
Quote:
I am unpacking things and came across the signed 89F Billy Ripken. He did not quite cover up the bat handle but did come close.
__________________
Man proposes and God disposes. U.S. Grant, July 1, 1885 Completed: 1969 - 2000 Topps Baseball Sets and Traded Sets. Senators and Frank Howard fan. I collect Topps baseball variations -- I can quit anytime I want to.....I DON'T WANT TO. |
#28
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Weirdly Billy did a signing recently and signed the FF version for the low price of $75 each. Usually he won't sign it. |
#29
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http://1989fleerripken.blogspot.com/...vered.html?m=1
Im only seeing this now. Seems like a huge development for this card. Forgive me if this collector is a regular here and Im late to the party.
__________________
JunkWaxGems - Showcasing the rare, little-known and sometimes mysterious cards of the 1980s and 1990s. https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ Oddball, promos and variations:http://www.comc.com/Users/JunkWaxGems,sr |
#30
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#31
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Is the general consensus now that these are, in fact, fakes?
__________________
JunkWaxGems - Showcasing the rare, little-known and sometimes mysterious cards of the 1980s and 1990s. https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ Oddball, promos and variations:http://www.comc.com/Users/JunkWaxGems,sr |
#32
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There are so many differences in ways that make no sense in printing that Fleer would have never done this for any reason. |
#33
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I am with you, not the greatest fake but makes sense that people would have been producing fakes during the craze and the extras pop up years later.
__________________
- Justin D. Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander. Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol. |
#34
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I think everything you laid out in your statement on Jon's site makes a lot of sense. My initial thoughts on it back when it first turned up (2010ish?) seemed like an obvious counterfeit. And now it appears that another 1500 or so have turned up. Go figure!
__________________
JunkWaxGems - Showcasing the rare, little-known and sometimes mysterious cards of the 1980s and 1990s. https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ Oddball, promos and variations:http://www.comc.com/Users/JunkWaxGems,sr |
#35
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The first "Mystery" FF card was identified over 20 years ago. It was the only known example for nearly 10 years - and yes - there were a few of us looking. By 2010 one or two would appear on eBay. That continued +/- until this huge discovery.
The "Mystery" FF has many differences compared to the original. Many of those are better on the "Mystery" card. Unlike any fake I've ever seen before. I still feel like these were professionally made and not like 99% of other fakes out there. By who and why? Who knows..... |
#36
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The big find also makes no sense for many many reasons. Why would an antique shop have them and not have sold them years ago? Seriously at any time in the last 20 years they had at very minimum $30,000 setting there in cards that are as easy to sell as any card in the hobby. Why wouldn't they have sold them before? It is a "mystery" card for sure in so many ways. Last edited by bnorth; 11-08-2022 at 08:38 AM. |
#37
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Also - that antique store find of 1500+ was in eastern PA (near where Fleer was located). Coincidence?
Back in the mid to late 90s - the FF was a $5 card. I really don't think these were made to cash in a profit. Why fake a $5 card? Flashback link: HERE |
#38
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#39
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Who knows? Why would anyone create a fake/reprint of a $5 card using a non-scanned image with better fonts, images and clarity on the back?
A simple fake would be a scanned, low grade image. The work put in to these is crazy. Not your run-of-the-mill fake. |
#40
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It may have been a $5 card, but it has ALWAYS had a ton of people looking for it. Seemed demand always outpaced supply. So it makes sense to fake a $5 card if you know you can sell 50,000 of them for $5 each.
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#41
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It's a very strange card. Hopefully now there's 1500 more I'll be able to get one.
I had the chance to examine one from Jon up close a few years ago, and it really is a strange thing. There are many points as Ben has pointed out that would indicate a fake. But there are also points that to me point away from a fake. The vast majority of fakes start with a real card and simply do color separations off that card. That's not horrible, as it keeps the image the same, but it is also at the same time horrible lazy work because they make the solid black an easily spotted halftone. The mystery card isn't simply cropped smaller as you might think at first, but is slightly enlarged in relation to the borders. The head sitting slightly higher while the other three edges of the image appear "trimmed" is the tip off on that. To me that looks more like someone had access to the original image and made their own version. It's not a simple "photograph the card through filters as halftones" like most fakes. There are similar things going on with the reverse, especially with the yellow, where in at least one spot yellow was added in places no other 89 fleer has it. There are differences in the black layer, and ones that look like a second generation negative except for the MLB logo being too different to be a direct copy from an existing card. When I went looking to see how consistent some other things were on 89 fleer, I bought a small batch of regular 89 B Ripkens that had the copyright line in slightly different places on a couple cards. Overall, I'm not positive what it is. It's probably a very ambitious fake, that wasn't necessarily sold in large quantities. (Also a bit odd for fakes) Maybe an inside job by a Fleer employee? The possibility I like better is that it was printed specifically for an outfit like shop at home. I have at least one card that came from them, but "wasn't made" It's actually a set that wasn't sold as a set, plus a signed card that wouldn't ordinarily be signed - all sold as a package by one of the TV shopping places. Plus a couple other items that were not released but ended up in the hobby when the company closed and their stuff was auctioned off. Either way it's an interesting card. |
#42
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I agree that they are not your regular cheap counterfeits. These IMO had to be made by someone in a real print shop. So to them this work was really nothing hard or special. I owned several(around 15 total) back when these were rare. I had one with different card stock, one clearly hand cut, and noticed at least 2 different versions. It would have been cool to be able to check out the big find in person. Maybe with the cards in hand a lot more could be figured out about how they got printed. |
#43
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EDITED to add, The cards with the moving copyright line is only on the Black Box cards with the rounded upper left corner. There is a similar version with the same rounded corner box but has a jagged upper left white stripe on the card. To give an example the 1952 Topps Mantle was double printed and the two cards have slight differences to each other but each card printed in the same location on the sheet are exactly the same. The rounded corner Black Box cards are similar but there are 132 Bill Ripken Black Box cards on the same sheet with slight differences. Last edited by bnorth; 11-09-2022 at 04:25 PM. |
#44
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Now that I didn't know.
Great info to have. |
#45
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From your post it seemed to me that was info you didn't know. Does it change any of your thoughts on them?
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#46
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Not really.
The differences are such a very mixed bag of things fakers would do and things they wouldn't. What I'm confident saying - They were not a pack issued or complete set card. To some that might be all they need to call them fake. Some of the differences are not sensible for someone faking them. It's a really strange thing, and hopefully I will be able to get one from the new hoard. I probably have the high res scans I did when I had one in hand. |
#47
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#48
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Jon sent one to me along with a normal error. And a Canadian card?
I did I think 1200 dpi scans of both, and measured things like thickness. Also compared how they looked under short and long wave UV. Going on the assumption that they're fake, it's the most mixed bag of great and sloppy work you could think of. |
#49
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#50
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When were these first discovered?
I was just looking up some info about a thought I had, and I may want one of these even more. Current technology can digitally produce the plates on the press, with essentially no physical process. Or digitally done but off the press. The early technologies to do this might explain some of the weirdness. UV process free plates- Not on press 3M 1995, Kodak 2001. Both failures for a few reasons. Digital thermal plates- Kodaks fist successful ones 2005 but there were others before that. https://www.kodak.com/content/produc...e-paper-EN.pdf |
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