2023 Contemporary Era Ballot Nominees

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by BobC

As others have asked/mentioned, I understand there is a 16 person committee to do the final voting, but who/how did they first decide who would go on this ballot? Simply taking the players who just dropped off the regular ballot after 10 years of not getting voted in, and immediately adding them to this ballot in the very next year, seems to run 100% counter to the purpose and intention of these "veteran" type committees. If their intent is to review the eligibility and worthiness of certain players who failed induction under the regular ballot procedures, by later on going back and re-assessing and re-evaluating their careers and achievements in light of changing views and context over time, I'm all for it. But immediately adding players who just dropped off the regular ballot is stupid and insulting to the BBWAA who just went through 10 years of not finding them worthy of induction. What time has passed to re-assess them? There is no "later" to allow for consideration of changing views or opinions of their careers, nor any time passing to really allow for any different views as to the context surrounding their possible induction. It is also then unfair to those kept off such a veteran committee ballot who have seen time pass since their opportunity for regular ballot induction was denied, and an actual change and re-evaluation of their HOF worthiness may be warranted and have taken place over that ensuing time they were not on any ballots.

If any of the four players who just dropped off the regular ballot get immediately elected to the HOF by this Contemporary Era committee, I view that as an insult and slap in the face to the BBWAA voters, and almost as an indictment against using them for the HOF voting going forward. If anything, it would seem more appropriate if there were a reasonable waiting period following a player's unsuccessful 10 straight year failure to be elected to the HOF via the regular ballot voting, before then making them eligible for induction through such a veterans committee. To me, at least a five year additional waiting period would not be inappropriate, or onerous.

Couldn't agree more and this was my main, and really only, problem with this ballot. I would have enjoyed a break from the stink of the steroid era to see guys like Dwight Evans, Keith Hernandez or Lou Whitaker get their chance at consideration. There are plenty of eligibles worthy of at least a deeper look before jumping back into the PED cesspool.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by dgo71

Couldn't agree more and this was my main, and really only, problem with this ballot. I would have enjoyed a break from the stink of the steroid era to see guys like Dwight Evans, Keith Hernandez or Lou Whitaker get their chance at consideration. There are plenty of eligibles worthy of at least a deeper look before jumping back into the PED cesspool.

I agree that Dwight Evans and Keith Hernandez are worthy of a vote.

I wonder how the Committee's "contemporary" focus being from 1980 onward affected their chances of getting a vote. Evans' rookie year was '72 and while his best years were in the 1980s, they may not have considered "contemporary" enough. Hernandez' MVP year was '79, so the same goes for him.

The "Classic" baseball Committee is supposed to consider players "whose greatest contributions to the game were realized prior to 1980", so they may get passed up again for being too contemporary.

So it seems Evans and Hernandez could be stuck in no man's land.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I agree that Dwight Evans and Keith Hernandez are worthy of a vote.

I wonder how the Committee's "contemporary" focus being from 1980 onward affected their chances of getting a vote. Evans' rookie year was '72 and while his best years were in the 1980s, they may not have considered "contemporary" enough. Hernandez' MVP year was '79, so the same goes for him.

The "Classic" baseball Committee is supposed to consider players "whose greatest contributions to the game were realized prior to 1980", so they may get passed up again for being too contemporary.

So it seems Evans and Hernandez could be stuck in no man's land.

Great point(s). Wonder how the HOF and these Committees would respond if someone ever directly asked them exactly how they were going to treat player's careers that fall into both the Classic and Contemporary eras, and decide which Committee's ballot they would belong on as a result.

Also got me thinking about another potential question. With a 1980 start/cut-off date, that means the Contemporary Committee era covers the last 42-43 years, a fairly long time over which we've seen major changes to how the game is played. So three years from now when the Contemporary Committee comes up again to vote, do they just keep the same 1980 start/cut-off date, or do they possibly move it to say 1983, so as to actually make the term "Contemporary" at last least somewhat accurate and relevant? At 42-43 years already, that's getting close to almost encompassing two entire generations. That doesn't exactly fit the definition of what I normally think of as "contemporary". But it is just part of the title for one of these veteran committees, and may never have been intended to have any true relevance after all.

[packs]

I assume the committee didn't choose every fringe player because they don't have questions about their candidacy. I think the questions around Hernandez and Dwight Evans have been talked about to death and there isn't anything left to debate.

People might have the same opinions about Mattingly and Dale Murphy, but the voters clearly saw something left to discuss.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

I assume the committee didn't choose every fringe player because they don't have questions about their candidacy. I think the questions around Hernandez and Dwight Evans have been talked about to death and there isn't anything left to debate.

People might have the same opinions about Mattingly and Dale Murphy, but the voters clearly saw something left to discuss.

So are you referring to Dwight Evans and Keith Hernandez as "fringe players"?

I am not sure what you mean by "the questions around Hernandez and Dwight Evans have been talked about to death and there isn't anything left to debate."

Keith Hernandez has yet to be included on a Veterans Committee ballot, unlike Mattingly, Murphy and others who have already been considered by the Veterans Committees in the past.

In the last couple of years, Hernandez was induced to the Cardinals Hall of Fame and had his number retired by the Mets. Lots of people think he has a stronger case than Mattingly.

As far as Evans goes, Bill James wrote an open letter in 2012 calling for Evans’ enshrinement in the Hall of Fame. And Adam Darowski inducted Evans into his Hall of Stats, writing "It’s not that Dwight Evans was a unique hitter. His 352.7 (Baseball-Reference) WAR Batting Runs have been matched by 89 other players. His fielding skills weren’t very unique, either. 194 players have more WAR Fielding Runs than Evans’ 66.3. But only 18 players in the history of the game have surpassed him in both categories."

[packs]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

So are you referring to Dwight Evans and Keith Hernandez as "fringe players"?

I am not sure what you mean by "the questions around Hernandez and Dwight Evans have been talked about to death and there isn't anything left to debate."

Keith Hernandez has yet to be included on a Veterans Committee ballot, unlike Mattingly, Murphy and others who have already been considered by the Veterans Committees in the past.

In the last couple of years, Hernandez was induced to the Cardinals Hall of Fame and had his number retired by the Mets. Lots of people think he has a stronger case than Mattingly.

As far as Evans goes, Bill James wrote an open letter in 2012 calling for Evans’ enshrinement in the Hall of Fame. And Adam Darowski inducted Evans into his Hall of Stats, writing "It’s not that Dwight Evans was a unique hitter. His 352.7 (Baseball-Reference) WAR Batting Runs have been matched by 89 other players. His fielding skills weren’t very unique, either. 194 players have more WAR Fielding Runs than Evans’ 66.3. But only 18 players in the history of the game have surpassed him in both categories."

Fringe HOF-candidates. That letter from Bill James was a decade ago. Yes, I believe both of their cases have been talked about to death. Keith Hernandez is one of the first players people point to, along with Garvey, when they question standards. It's not a new discussion.

I don't disagree that the same thing can be said of Mattingly. But the committee obviously feels differently.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

Fringe HOF-candidates. That letter from Bill James was a decade ago. Yes, I believe both of their cases have been talked about to death. Keith Hernandez is one of the first players people point to, along with Garvey, when they question standards. It's not a new discussion.

I don't disagree that the same thing can be said of Mattingly. But the committee obviously feels differently.

What do you mean by "Keith Hernandez is one of the first players people point to, along with Garvey, when they question standards."

Do you not believe Evans and Hernandez deserve consideration?

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by packs

I assume the committee didn't choose every fringe player because they don't have questions about their candidacy. I think the questions around Hernandez and Dwight Evans have been talked about to death and there isn't anything left to debate.

People might have the same opinions about Mattingly and Dale Murphy, but the voters clearly saw something left to discuss.

The whole idea of these committee is to review guys who have been talked about to death. We just spent a decade talking about Bonds and Clemens. How many chances did Gil Hodges need to get in? All I'm saying is that if you're going to revisit guys who have been through the BBWAA process, pick some guys that haven't been recently discussed.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by dgo71

The whole idea of these committee is to review guys who have been talked about to death. We just spent a decade talking about Bonds and Clemens. How many chances did Gil Hodges need to get in? All I'm saying is that if you're going to revisit guys who have been through the BBWAA process, pick some guys that haven't been recently discussed.

I agree with you on that point. There should be more time between Falling off the ballot and showing up so soon on the next committee ballot. Perhaps a waiting time of 5 years

[packs]

I don't disagree. I also think someone like Mattingly had their shot too. I would also like to see guys like Kenny Lofton and Jorge Posada get a second look over Bonds.