First Hall of Famer with a PED suspension?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The point I always get vilified for, the same guys who think steroids should be punishable by death worship Mays, Aaron, and a whole generation of players who popped greenies. Yes I know there are differences, but even so...

Just like I referred to with the uppers-laced coffee that teams like the Yankees (and thus maybe Maris and Mantle) used to be known for using and providing for their players.

Funny thing is though, that when you try to question others why such a bias in favor of their favorite players, they'll typically give you no real answer, and refuse to admit to their biased and often illogical reasoning. LOL

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Just like I referred to with the uppers-laced coffee that teams like the Yankees (and thus maybe Maris and Mantle) used to be known for using and providing for their players.

Funny thing is though, that when you try to question others why such a bias in favor of their favorite players, they'll typically give you no real answer, and refuse to admit to their biased and often illogical reasoning. LOL

Not to defend steroids, but every generation tries for an edge in whatever way it can. Maybe by the 80s that edge was higher tech, and I get the difference between no official ban on greenies and an eventual ban on steroids, but it seems a bit inconsistent to worship Mays and vilify Bonds, for example. I agree there's some heavy nostalgia bias there.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not to defend steroids, but every generation tries for an edge in whatever way it can. Maybe by the 80s that edge was higher tech, and I get the difference between no official ban on greenies and an eventual ban on steroids, but it seems a bit inconsistent to worship Mays and vilify Bonds, for example. I agree there's some heavy nostalgia bias there.

Hey, like I also alluded to, "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying! Typical male-dominated, uber-competitive, testosterone heavy thinking and expectations. And again, why it seems weird when just a couple or so players get caught cheating, they are often regaled and revered for doing so and trying so hard to win. But when a lot/most of the players do such cheating, the reaction and fan sentiment is more often the exact opposite. Go figure.

I always think back to the time Albert Belle got caught with a corked bat, and one of his teammates actually climbed through the false ceiling and broke into the umpire's dressing room to swap it out for a clean one. Instead of being vilified for doing all that, Belle and his teammate are almost looked upon as sort of revered folk heroes in some areas whenever that story comes up. Yet, whenever talk of Belle's HOF aspirations comes up, it isn't the cheating that is considered the reason he's not getting in. It's the injury shortened career, along with his other not so normal/acceptable actions and stunts, like chasing down trick-or-treating kids with his SUV for egging his house, among other not so great things.

[packs]

I told you how I thought it made baseball worse. The game became inauthentic and a cartoon version of itself. I don't particularly like watching people play video games and that's what you were watching. The only way Brady Anderson could hit 50 home runs was to cheat. Sammy Sosa could not hit 66 home runs in a season unless he cheated. Mark McGwire could not hit 70 home runs in a season unless he cheated. Roger Clemens's career was over until he cheated. Jason Giambi won a faux MVP while he was cheating. Bonds won 4 MVPs in a row cheating. It got to a point where you questioned nearly everything you saw because a lot of what you were seeing wasn't real.

I don't see a silver lining to any of these things and that's why I said it made the game worse.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by packs

I told you how I thought it made baseball worse. The game became inauthentic and a cartoon version of itself. I don't particularly like watching people play video games and that's what you were watching. The only way Brady Anderson could hit 50 home runs was to cheat. Sammy Sosa could not hit 66 home runs in a season unless he cheated. Mark McGwire could not hit 70 home runs in a season unless he cheated. Roger Clemens's career was over until he cheated. Jason Giambi won a faux MVP while he was cheating. Bonds won 4 MVPs in a row cheating. It got to a point where you questioned nearly everything you saw because a lot of what you were seeing wasn't real.

I don't see a silver lining to any of these things and that's why I said it made the game worse.

I am in complete agreement with you. But I think it would do more good for the HOF to enshrine the best of the cheaters, and then create a wing that incorporates the history of 1985 - Present. They should openly write about how it negatively affected fans and the game. They can even include the consequence of this offensive surge by highlighting Three Real Outcomes and the "sticky stuff" our modern pitchers have been using to get extra rotation on the ball. There is no way to talk about one without talking about the other.

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[packs]

I don't think it helps to discuss philosophical things like Dead Ball to Lively Ball or 154 games to 162 games in relation to an issue like PEDs and steroids. There is no similarity or common thread in my opinion.

Universal changes to the game (dead ball to lively ball, 154 games to 162, evolving stadium dimensions, evolutions in the manufacturing of the baseball itself, advances in medicine) affect every team and player equally. I'm not sure how that relates to individual players choosing to cheat.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think it helps to discuss philosophical things like Dead Ball to Lively Ball or 154 games to 162 games in relation to an issue like PEDs and steroids. There is no similarity or common thread in my opinion.

Universal changes to the game (dead ball to lively ball, 154 games to 162, evolving stadium dimensions, evolutions in the manufacturing of the baseball itself, advances in medicine) affect every team and player equally. I'm not sure how that relates to individual players choosing to cheat.

Packs, I'm not disparaging you, just trying to understand you and your point of view, and maybe help shed some light on some things you maybe aren't considering.

You specifically named and blamed McGwire and Sosa for making baseball exponentially worse, not all the other PED users, just those two, which doesn't make sense.

They brought in money and eyes but made baseball exponentially worse. The whole reason we're even discussing the topic is because of what these two chose to do. They do not belong in the Hall of Fame.

That response of yours was to a comment made by another poster that said they thought McGwire and Sosa would get into the HOF first. They, McGwire and Sosa, most certainly were not the only ones making such choices though.

And when I asked you how they, McGwire and Sosa, had made baseball exponentially worse, you couldn't give me an exact, specific answer, just asking me my same question right back at me, and some other things along the lines that baseball was no longer "real" because of them. But you also added the one and only, somewhat specific, single reference about how because of them, McGwire and Sosa, there are now discussions about things like who "the REAL home run king" is. I find that very telling that that is the only specific response you seem to have actually given to the question of what was done to make baseball worse by McGwire and Sosa. It is not necessarily the game itself that was made worse, it seems to be more the fame and reputations of certain players whose record(s) were eclipsed that you feel has somehow been equated to ruining the overall game of baseball itself.

And that was why I brought up all the changes that took place to end the Dead-Ball Era, to point out how other changes made to the game of baseball in the past also affected and replaced records of even earlier, well-loved players, just like you're saying happened to "the REAL home run king" because of the PEDs. That is the relevance of why I brought that all up, to show how other records have been impacted and replaced because of other rules and game changes over the years as well. But you only seem to vilify the PED users, specifically McGwire and Sosa, as making baseball unreal and exponentially worse because PEDs were ultimately banned, and therefore the PED users were/are considered cheaters, and therefore unworthy of ever being given any HOF consideration. But when I also asked about other known cheaters in the baseball HOF, specifically spitball pitchers, you, and many others, seems to not care about that at all. Which I'll say once again, makes no sense. Cheating is cheating, how is one form different than another in whether a player is deserving of HOF consideration or not? Or is the thinking somehow that because a PED user is on those PEDs every single time they come to bat, and for every single pitch they see, whereas a spitball pitcher or corked bat user doesn't always throw a spitball or use a corked bat for every single pitch they throw/see, that somehow makes them so much better than someone using a PED?

It seems the issue that some people may have with PED users doesn't really come down to cheating at all, just that records once thought as inviolate are no longer the records, and PED use is possibly considered the sole reason. Why else would other known cheaters already in the HOF be left alone? Seems there is at a minimum, some kind or type of a dual standard being applied to ballplayers during the PED era, when a preponderance of the MLB players are rumored to have taken part in the PED usage. So, when most ballplayers are cheating, which more or less can possibly negate anyone having an advantage over anyone else, that is bad, but when only a very few ballplayers cheat, so that they definitely do have a decided advantage over most everyone else, that isn't so bad, and in some instances is sometimes even looked upon as good. Those FACTS makes absolutely no logical, common sense at all!

Again, I am not for the use of PEDs since they have officially been banned by MLB, but to so completely and excessively vilify and deny any real HOF consideration for the users for doing so before any ban existed, or during the period when MLB really didn't care and passively supported the practice IMO, seems completely wrong, especially in light of the fact that there are many other known cheaters that are already in the baseball HOF.