The future of Shohei Ohtani

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Their bullpen is remarkably consistent.

Bad week for Charlie Sheen.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Bad week for Charlie Sheen.

Bad year

[bk400]

It's telling that Ohtani was visibly frustrated after closing out the 6th inning -- this is after giving up only one unearned run (which was the only run scored against him in the past 19 innings). Seems like he holds himself to pretty high expectations.

Then he gets on base twice and scores a run in what would be considered an off night for him in the offensive department.

Let's just hope he doesn't fall in love with a Kardashian and commit some unnatural acts personally that impacts his professional game.

[seanofjapan]

First member of the 40/10 club (home runs/wins).

I wonder if anyone will ever join him.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

First member of the 40/10 club (home runs/wins).

I wonder if anyone will ever join him.

I think someone may (as a dual player) but not necessarily the 40/10 club. Now that players and teams see it can be done (especially utilizing the DH position that makes it easier to protect the player from the risks of injury of playing in the field). But it may take some time because someone has grow and develop into that player so they may not even be in the minors yet.

keeps making history. And keeps missing out on the playoffs.

You see his frustration and that will be his face for the next two months while he chases more amazing individual stats and closes in on an MVP and then he can figure out what he wants to do and where with the off season.

[mrreality68]

Simply amazing

You have to feel for him.

He hits a grand slam (#43 homer on the year)

His team pulls off a triple play to get out of an inning)first in over 20 years)


And yet they still lose

He and their fans deserve better

But there is hope. Trout comes back next week and they are only 7.5 games back for the 3rd wildcard spot

[Seven]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Simply amazing

You have to feel for him.

He hits a grand slam (#43 homer on the year)

His team pulls off a triple play to get out of an inning)first in over 20 years)


And yet they still lose

He and their fans deserve better

But there is hope. Trout comes back next week and they are only 7.5 games back for the 3rd wildcard spot

When was the last time a sports team wasted the careers of not one, but two generational talents?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Seven

When was the last time a sports team wasted the careers of not one, but two generational talents?

If Trout never wins, he has only himself to blame. Presumably Ohtani won't make the same mistake.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If Trout never wins, he has only himself to blame. Presumably Ohtani won't make the same mistake.

I won't disagree, Peter, Trout is most likely on the back half of his career though. Not saying that he won't have any more good seasons ahead of him, but the Angels allowed his prime to come and go, and didn't even sniff a world series.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Seven

When was the last time a sports team wasted the careers of not one, but two generational talents?

I can't think of another situation like this. Complete ineptitude by the organization. Any Angels fans on here? I'd love to hear what they think of the current debacle.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Seven

When was the last time a sports team wasted the careers of not one, but two generational talents?

Mariners 1995 - Present.

90s = KGJ, ARod, Randy Johnson.... although they made the playoffs, could never get over the hill.

2005 - 2015 = Ichiro, Beltre, Felix Hernandez, Cano.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Seven

I won't disagree, Peter, Trout is most likely on the back half of his career though. Not saying that he won't have any more good seasons ahead of him, but the Angels allowed his prime to come and go, and didn't even sniff a world series.

He signed his long term deal in 2019. He was what, 28 at the time? It's on him.

[Bill77]

Originally Posted by todeen

Mariners 1995 - Present.

90s = KGJ, ARod, Randy Johnson.... although they made the playoffs, could never get over the hill.

2005 - 2015 = Ichiro, Beltre, Felix Hernandez, Cano.

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The Padres
1992-1993 = Tony Gwynn, Fred McGriff, Gary Sheffield.

1994-2001 = Tony Gwynn and Trevor Hoffman.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Bill77

The Padres
1992-1993 = Tony Gwynn, Fred McGriff, Gary Sheffield.

1994-2001 = Tony Gwynn and Trevor Hoffman.

I do not consider their careers playoff wasted

Tony Gwynn was in 27 playoff games 3 different years
Trevor Hoffman in 12 playoff games in 4 different years
Fred McGriff won a World Series and in 5 different years and 50 playoff games
Gary Sheffield was in 44 playoff games over 6 different years and won a World Series championship

So they may not have done much with a particular team they all played multiple years in the playoffs and 2 of the 4 won a championship

Trout has never sniffed the playoffs

[G1911]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

trout has never sniffed the playoffs

2014.

[jayshum]

Unfortunately, 2014 was it for Trout and they lost 3-0 in their one series. Most years the Angels haven't been close to making it and the Pujols signing didn't work out as he declined over the time he was there. Trout chose to sign a long deal and stay. It will be interesting to see if the Angels are willing to offer Ohtani a big enough deal to make him consider staying.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Unfortunately, 2014 was it for Trout and they lost 3-0 in their one series. Most years the Angels haven't been close to making it and the Pujols signing didn't work out as he declined over the time he was there. Trout chose to sign a long deal and stay. It will be interesting to see if the Angels are willing to offer Ohtani a big enough deal to make him consider staying.

IMO there is zero chance Ohtani stays. Past a certain point it's funny money and obviously there is no shortage of teams willing to make him fabulously rich. If he loves So Cal he can go to the Dodgers.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO there is zero chance Ohtani stays. Past a certain point it's funny money and obviously there is no shortage of teams willing to make him fabulously rich. If he loves So Cal he can go to the Dodgers.

Peter, I agree that at a certain point you would think a little bit more money wouldn't matter, but it usually ends up being the highest bidder that signs the player so hard to believe it will be different with Ohtani.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by G1911

2014.

Stand corrected.

Not sure how I missed it/forgot it

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Peter, I agree that at a certain point you would think a little bit more money wouldn't matter, but it usually ends up being the highest bidder that signs the player so hard to believe it will be different with Ohtani.

True but I can't believe this young man of unique talents isn't dying to get out of there and get to someplace where he can compete.

[RCMcKenzie]

Rendon, Trout, Urshela, Moniak, Moustakis, Drury, Renfroe. The Angels need a few pitchers next year. See if Giolito can pan-out. I'd stay there.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

True but I can't believe this young man of unique talents isn't dying to get out of there and get to someplace where he can compete.

I am sure he will get the best of both worlds.

There are enough teams with the money that he will get his money, he will play on a winning team, and if he choses he can live where he wants to.

He will get quality of life and quality of work life and enjoy his life.

with his skill set and style he will survive and prosper.

Will be fun watching

[Seven]

Ohtani is confirmed to have torn his UCL again, per the Angels GM. It's unclear whether it will require surgery, but he won't pitch for the rest of the year. I've linked the tweet below.

https://x.com/jeffpassan/status/1694...9Tg4v1McmAcYQA

Clearly he should dedicate himself to hitting. 2nd UCL tear. He's an elite hitter, and should continue as such.

[bk400]

Agree. Take his 2nd MVP award and then move to right field. Where he might even win a few Gold Gloves.

As an aside, I find it incredible that he's throwing 94 mph with a torn UCL.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by bk400

Agree. Take his 2nd MVP award and then move to right field. Where he might even win a few Gold Gloves.

As an aside, I find it incredible that he's throwing 94 mph with a torn UCL.

I believe Nolan Ryan threw a 98 MPH fastball on his last pitch, with a torn UCL, at the age of 46.

[mrreality68]

Wow

No pitching test of year and potentially surgery but they are no sure. That question can cost him $
Tens of millions of dollars in his next contract depending on the answer.

So he hits the rest of the year and gets his MVP as someone mentioned,
Trout goes back on the IL after playing just 1 game and maybe out rest of year.

Sad for the Fans in LA and not the 2 month send off they thought

Wow and not even a play off race

[cesarcap]

Now, w/ the UCL, is a perfect time for the Yankees or Mets to overpay....

[packs]

I'm not convinced he had any future in pitching after this season anyway. Not so sure it'll cost him anything.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A reminder that "investing" in younger players always comes with significant risk.

[mrreality68]

From what I am reading if it is confirmed by their 2nd opinion that they are getting with other doctors that it is truly torn than it would require Tommy John surgery (which he had several years ago) and he would not pitch until the 2025 season.
Even then anyone thinking of signing in as a pitcher/hitter will have a long hard pause at his long term viability of him pitching and how long he can last after 2 such surgeries and the risk of another injury.

We are talking he could lose $100 million but most likely a lot more vs what he could have negotiated if he had not gotten hurt.

[TUM301]

Thinking the pitching days are over. Would have pulled the plug on that 2 years ago and made him a full time outfielder. If back at close to 100% my guess is Max. 40 million per for 6-8 years, so 240-320 total. At a 33-40% discount maybe a few more teams are now in play. SF looking more and more likely to me. My 2 cents anyway...

[packs]

All due respect but this Giants hype the last two seasons is nuts. There was zero chance Judge would sign with them and he didn't. There's zero chance Ohtani would ever sign with them either. They stink. He may as well stay where he is and play with Trout if he's going to play with nobody on the Giants.

He is going to sign for the same amount of money he would have pre-injury. I keep saying that I don't think a single team was banking on Ohtani being a member of their rotation for any length of time. I'm not really seeing a diminishing return with this news. Especially when you factor in all the eyes he'll bring wherever he goes.

[todeen]

He can't play OF until his arm heals, just like Bryce Harper. So now he must decide if he will strictly DH, or get surgery and try to rush back like Harper. Bad timing either way for teams looking at signing him.

While on a new team lets say he opts for surgery; he could be like Acuna, injured and not playing when the team wins a WS.

As for salary, his future earnings have definitely decreased. If they were at $500m, a team knows they need to invest in an injured player. Would Mariners do that? I don't think so. So now his West Coast options are Dodgers, Padres, Giants. I agree Padres and Giants are risky if Ohtani has a win now mentality. Padres are about to be torn down. So then that leaves Dodgers. Would Dodgers offer $400m? I don't think so.

Part of the reason for Dodgers recent success is because they have acted like the Cardinals, and they don't sign long term contracts with players who will become beached whales with 4 yrs remaining. I would say Dodgers offer 5 years, $30m, $150m guaranteed, with incentives for more money that could bring yearly salaries up to $50m if he reaches 40 HR, 100 RBI, AS, MVP, GG, if he pitches again, etc etc. If Ohtani opts for surgery, Dodgers know they have invested $30m for one year of nothing.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

He has been huge of course in the card world. What percentage on average do his rookie cards drop now?

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He has been huge of course in the card world. What percentage on average do his rookie cards drop now?

Doesn't seem to be a lot of unusual selling pressure in his higher grade rookie cards so far. Then again, people are still spending $150 on Wander Franco cards over the past 12 hours.

[Shoeless Moe]

He definitely will sign for less now. Not even a question. If he goes from being a 2 way player, and significant draw because of that, to now an injury risk, granted a very good position player, or worse just a DH, no way he gets what he would have gotten.

Unless one of 2 last place New York teams do what they usually do, overspend and lose.

But he has said he wants to win (toss out both NY) so only East Coast team I see him going to is Baltimore (maybe Boston), but more likely he'll land on the West Coast. 3-4-5 teams equal to or better than NY teams so why head East. Doesn't even make sense to consider, both NY teams 2-3 years (minimum) away from being competitive (WS bound)again, in regards to the divisions they are in too.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

He definitely will sign for less now. Not even a question. If he goes from being a 2 way player, and significant draw because of that, to now an injury risk, just a very good outfielder, or even worse just a DH, no way he gets what he would have gotten.

Unless one of 2 last place New York teams do what they usually do, overspend and lose.

But he has said he wants to win (toss out both NY) so only East Coast team I see him going to is Baltimore, but more likely he'll land on the West Coast. 4-5 teams equal to or better than NY teams so why head East. Doesn't even make sense to consider, both NY teams 2-3 years (minimum) away from being competitive (WS bound)again, in regards to the divisions they are in too.

How can you say both NY teams are far off from competing when the offseason hasn't even happened yet? The Yankees were playing in the ALCS just last year. And when you're talking about the Yankees you aren't talking about a team who has to see if prospects pan out. This offseason has a large free agent pool of quality players. This is just something people who don't like the Yankees say about them.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by packs

How can you say both NY teams are far off from competing when the offseason hasn't even happened yet? The Yankees were playing in the ALCS just last year. And when you're talking about the Yankees you aren't talking about a team who has to see if prospects pan out. This offseason has a large free agent pool of quality players. This is just something people who don't like the Yankees say about them.

+1 on that

[packs]

The Orioles haven't appeared in the postseason in 7 years, but yeah, that's the most logical AL East destination for a guy looking to win.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Fear the Bird.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by packs

How can you say both NY teams are far off from competing when the offseason hasn't even happened yet? The Yankees were playing in the ALCS just last year. And when you're talking about the Yankees you aren't talking about a team who has to see if prospects pan out. This offseason has a large free agent pool of quality players. This is just something people who don't like the Yankees say about them.

Are we talking about the New York Yankees? They are arguably further off from competing than the Mets are, given that they don't like to spend money anymore and that every team in their division is clearly better. They will need a massive shift (and a bunch of new players) to have a prayer of competing in 2024.

Going back to Ohtani, I very much doubt he will go anywhere except the west coast. I also think, even with the injury, he will set the record for most total dollars in a contract.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

The Orioles haven't appeared in the postseason in 7 years, but yeah, that's the most logical AL East destination for a guy looking to win.

The Yankees are in last place and have a losing record. They have 2 starters with a league average OPS. Doesn't mean they will continue to suck, but last place teams are not usually considered winning destinations. The Orioles are in 1st place with a balanced, younger team with most of them outperforming the league.

[packs]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Are we talking about the New York Yankees? They are arguably further off from competing than the Mets are, given that they don't like to spend money anymore and that every team in their division is clearly better. They will need a massive shift (and a bunch of new players) to have a prayer of competing in 2024.

Going back to Ohtani, I very much doubt he will go anywhere except the west coast. I also think, even with the injury, he will set the record for most total dollars in a contract.

Last year, the Yankees played in the ALCS. Their roster this year isn't all that different. The difference are injuries and lapses in production from most of the same players who took the team to the ALCS last year.

The Mets lost in the Wild Card series last year, totally revamped their roster, then traded their biggest signings away.

So, why are the Mets better?

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

The Yankees are in last place and have a losing record. They have 2 starters with a league average OPS. Doesn't mean they will continue to suck, but last place teams are not usually considered winning destinations. The Orioles are in 1st place with a balanced, younger team with most of them outperforming the league.

I understand that but the Yankees aren't a basement dwelling team and they have an owner who wants to win, which is largely different from what you'll find in Baltimore. Baltimore is good this year. Their owner is largely considered one of the worst in the American League.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by packs

Last year, the Yankees played in the ALCS. Their roster this year isn't all that different. The difference are injuries and lapses in production from most of the same players who took the team to the ALCS last year.

The Mets lost in the Wild Card series last year, totally revamped their roster, then traded their biggest signings away.

So, why are the Mets better?

The Mets aren't better, but they have an owner who is willing to spend (like the Yankees used to have). For this reason I believe they are closer to competing next year and beyond than the Yankees are.

Half the Yankees position players are dead weight (including Stanton), their pitching staff is in shambles (don't tell me you trust Severino or Rodon even a little bit), and their bullpen is inconsistent, especially at the back end.

I'll bet on the team that is going to pay big money for FAs and have Edwin Diaz back for next year and beyond.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He has been huge of course in the card world. What percentage on average do his rookie cards drop now?

There's a Blowout poll about Ohtani card price changes.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1566180

Spoiler alert, most people so far think 20-40%, with a bunch of people 0-20%.

[packs]

The last time his market tanked I managed to pick this up for $250. I'd do it again:

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by packs

How can you say both NY teams are far off from competing when the offseason hasn't even happened yet? The Yankees were playing in the ALCS just last year. And when you're talking about the Yankees you aren't talking about a team who has to see if prospects pan out. This offseason has a large free agent pool of quality players. This is just something people who don't like the Yankees say about them.

Yes Yankees were in the ALCS last year, but did you forget how awful they looked. They didn't belong on the same field as the Astros. And they've regressed this year, so if you think they are on the cusp of the World Series, with teams like Baltimore, Houston, Texas, Seattle, Tampa, Toronto, and Minnesota all ahead of them enjoy your delusions.


Had to re-check. They lost to the Astros 4 games to 0. Struck out 17 times in Game 1, 13 times in Game 2. Batted .162 for the Series.

They are 23rd in runs scored this year, behind the Rockies and Nationals. 29th in team batting average, ahead of only the A's.

Yep they are on the cusp alright.

[packs]

Of all the teams you mentioned ahead of the Yankees only the Astros have won a World Series in the last 30 years.

[Shoeless Moe]

Right, I'm talking about the present time and near future. The Yankees have all these teams to pass. So it's not like they are knocking on the door.

That offense sucks. Surely you can acknowledge that.