Could Caitlyn Clark compete with D1 men?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course. A phenomenal woman player. That doesn't make her a man. Not a sexist remark in any way, just fact. She doesn't have the strength or speed to play against skilled men at the D1 level. She'd be a huge liability on defense, and would not get open enough on offense to score many points at all.

Not playing defense is not as disqualifying as it used to be. As far as I can tell, Trae Young hasn't guarded anyone since he joined the NBA and he's still having a good career.

I remember the USWMT soccer team played a high school team maybe 15 years ago. The HS team was I think a select team for the local MLS team (Chicago Fire Juniors?). That HS team's players would have mostly played Division II. The boys won, but the women were competitive, so I think some of the women could have played NCAA men's soccer.

Clark would need to change her game, but I think she could earn a roster spot and some playing time on a college men's team.

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[NiceDocter]

The US women’s national soccer team lost an exhibition game to an Under 15 year old boys team representing just the Dallas area 5-2. Quote was they were “ bigger, stronger, faster” .

[bk400]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

The US women’s national soccer team lost an exhibition game to an Under 15 year old boys team representing just the Dallas area 5-2. Quote was they were “ bigger, stronger, faster” .

This is an apt comparison. Soccer is a contact sport in a way that is analogous, if not similar to basketball, and the USWNT were arguably the best women's soccer team in the world. That they lost badly to a city-wide team of 15 year olds highlights the strength and speed differences between the sexes.

There is less space on a basketball court relative to a soccer pitch, so quickness and leaping ability in basketball is more important than pure straight line speed, and contact takes place more frequently and is harder to shake. These factors probably accentuate the female disadvantage even more in basketball.

I would take the argument further and say that Caitlyn Clark would struggle 1v1 against the starting, varsity boys shooting guard at any American public high school with an enrollment of more than 1500.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bk400

This is an apt comparison. Soccer is a contact sport in a way that is analogous, if not similar to basketball, and the USWNT were arguably the best women's soccer team in the world. That they lost badly to a city-wide team of 15 year olds highlights the strength and speed differences between the sexes.

There is less space on a basketball court relative to a soccer pitch, so quickness and leaping ability in basketball is more important than pure straight line speed, and contact takes place more frequently and is harder to shake. These factors probably accentuate the female disadvantage even more in basketball.

I would take the argument further and say that Caitlyn Clark would struggle 1v1 against the starting, varsity boys shooting guard at any American public high school with an enrollment of more than 1500.

And even then I am guessing those 15 year olds instinctively were less physical in that game than they would have been with their male contemporaries. I played a lot of basketball in the day in countless venues and configurations, and on occasion women would find their way into a game (some were even accomplished players) and no self-respecting guy is going to be rough on a woman in that setting.

[Casey2296]

I'll never understand this obsession with women being a part of men's sports, we fought for 50 years so women could have their own space, title 9 anyone? Women aren't men and men aren't women.
The bigger concern is biological men invading women's spaces now, imho.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'll never understand this obsession with women being a part of men's sports, we fought for 50 years so women could have their own space, title 9 anyone? Women aren't men and men aren't women.
The bigger concern is biological men invading women's spaces now, imho.

Ironic, indeed. Back in the day, no self respecting man would masquerade as a woman to play women's sports. But, alas, these are different times.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'll never understand this obsession with women being a part of men's sports, we fought for 50 years so women could have their own space, title 9 anyone? Women aren't men and men aren't women.
The bigger concern is biological men invading women's spaces now, imho.

"Girls will be boys and boys will be girls, it's a mixed up mumbled up shook up world."

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"Girls will be boys and boys will be girls, it's a mixed up mumbled up shook up world."

Excellent Kinks knowledge Mr Spaeth.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'll never understand this obsession with women being a part of men's sports, we fought for 50 years so women could have their own space, title 9 anyone? Women aren't men and men aren't women.

The bigger concern is biological men invading women's spaces now, imho.

I didn't realize there is an obsession with that. I think here we are just having a goofy conversation about how good Clark is, similar to how people liked to wonder whether the Kentucky basketball teams could have beaten the Sixers.

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[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And even then I am guessing those 15 year olds instinctively were less physical in that game than they would have been with their male contemporaries. I played a lot of basketball in the day in countless venues and configurations, and on occasion women would find their way into a game (some were even accomplished players) and no self-respecting guy is going to be rough on a woman in that setting.

And vice versa I would think. I don't think you get accolades for putting a hip into a 14 year old boy.

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[packs]

I don't know why so much is made of that scrimmage. It wasn't played under any real game condition at all and it was merely a practice for the women's team in anticipation of playing an international friendly, which I'm sure is where the effort went.

This is like suggesting the Yankees loss to the Diablos Rojos on Sunday meant anything.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

And vice versa I would think. I don't think you get accolades for putting a hip into a 14 year old boy.

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Yeah I am sure the women lost because they toned down their game.

[steve B]

There's no way to know for sure. So much of a team sport depends on the team. I do think it would be very challenging.

But, while figuring out a reply, I looked up something.

My college was... Small. I wouldn't think we were D anything.
Our basketball team played Bridgeport while Manute Bol was there. And lost but didn't get blown out.
I was very surprised to learn Bridgeport is D2.

The reason I looked?
I would play occasionally when some guys that played in the parking lot around lunchtime would ask.
My basketball skills can be described as somewhere between "Awful" and "F_ atrocious"
I did not make my HS team when I tried out.
I played one season of rec league, and my stat "line" for 0for I think 2, two fouls committed (One I still disagree with ) and led the league in shots hitting the beams in the low ceiling 2! Why they put the little kids up in the real gym and the high school age kids in the little kid gym downstairs.... anyway, those two shots might have missed anyway, although I was ok from what would now be 3 pt distance.

I was obviously only filling a space until someone got back from class, but oddly, I never felt seriously outclassed.
I found out that bunch of guys was our basketball team - and that we even had a team- when they were talking in the lunch line about playing against Bol.

The game had changed a lot, and my school got absorbed into the CT community college system,

Do I think an excellent female Player might make the roster on a D1 team.
I'm not sure. The right player on the right team with the right coach.... maybe. Theres certainly stuff that they would have to game plan around. And it might not work out. But I don't think I could rule it out completely.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Not playing defense is not as disqualifying as it used to be. As far as I can tell, Trae Young hasn't guarded anyone since he joined the NBA and he's still having a good career.

I remember the USWMT soccer team played a high school team maybe 15 years ago. The HS team was I think a select team for the local MLS team (Chicago Fire Juniors?). That HS team's players would have mostly played Division II. The boys won, but the women were competitive, so I think some of the women could have played NCAA men's soccer.

Clark would need to change her game, but I think she could earn a roster spot and some playing time on a college men's team.

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Of course's he's guarding people. If you gave an NBA team a 5-4 advantage on offense at that talent level they would win every game.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course's he's guarding people. If you gave an NBA team a 5-4 advantage on offense at that talent level they would win every game.

Ehhhh. He does come down the court with the rest of the team but I have never seen him without help deter an opponent from taking a direct path to the basket. On occasion he will wave his arms a bit, maybe that's what you are thinking of.

[packs]

He also led the league in turnovers two years in a row. But nobody would say Trae Young isn't a great player. Which is why I agree that a knock on someone's defense isn't a real road block. There are so many other things that can be discussed in place of it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Ehhhh. He does come down the court with the rest of the team but I have never seen him without help deter an opponent from taking a direct path to the basket. On occasion he will wave his arms a bit, maybe that's what you are thinking of.

https://www.si.com/nba/hawks/news/qu...youngs-defense

Comparing a weak defender (conceded, at least so far) to a woman trying to defend a man is not IMO a useful analogy.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.si.com/nba/hawks/news/qu...youngs-defense

Comparing a weak defender (conceded, at least so far) to a woman trying to defend a man is not IMO a useful analogy.

Because, while Trae is small and weak, he's not slow?

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Because, while Trae is small and weak, he's not slow?

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The physical differences between him and other NBA players do not even begin to compare to the relevant physical differences between Clark and any male player. I can't believe we're even having this discussion.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can't believe we're even having this discussion.

I can. When human biology conflicts with ideology or what one would like to be true, we know which one gets tossed aside .

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The physical differences between him and other NBA players do not even begin to compare to the relevant physical differences between Clark and any male player. I can't believe we're even having this discussion.

In terms of what, Peter? If we are not talking about size, strength or speed, what is your criteria?

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