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#1
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circa 1860s Rialto Base Ball club any info?
I'm a coin collector, sent here from one of the coin discussion boards in hopes that someone might have some more info about the Rialto Base Ball club.
I got the attached coin several years ago. This is (was) a two-cent piece. Yes, the US made 2-cent coins, and 3-cent coins also. These 2-cent coins were struck from 1865-1872. The front of this coin was ground off and then engraved for the Rialto B.B.C., with a ball and crossed bats and several pennants. It has a lot of wear on the side with the engraving, so someone kept it in their pocket for a long time. It must have meant something to them. Google has a few references to a very early black club with that name, organized in Detroit in the 1860s. [1] [2]. There are also a mentions to somewhat later clubs in Allentown, Pennsylvania (1907) [3] and Washington, DC (1923-1925) [5], [6], [7] and Seattle (1917) [8] I'd certainly love for this to be a piece of contemporary memorabilia for an 1860s black baseball club. It's a plus that the host coin is from the same period... or it could be just as likely that this coin was kicking around the back of someone's junk drawer and engraved much later. So I have three questions that might or might not have answers... Does anyone have a different or a better candidate for a Rialto Base Ball Club, beyond the ones I found? The bottom of the engraved side of this piece has a P. C. in a border. Does anyone have a candidate for what that might possibly mean? On the reverse of this piece, it looks like the T in CENTS has been intentionally removed. That leaves "2 CEN S"... which doesn't sound like anything to me. Does anyone have a candidate for what "2 CEN S" might mean, in a baseball context? |
#2
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I have nothing to add on the Rialto Club. The "PC" could be a player's initials. My guess is the "T" in cents was unintentionally obliterated at some time. Cool piece.
Last edited by GaryPassamonte; 04-14-2024 at 04:21 AM. |
#3
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I think the PC would be the initials of the engraver (or maybe the initials of the person/romantic interest the etcher gave it to).
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#4
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It’s very cool and I also think it is likely the artist initials are the PC.
I want it to be of age and the wear on the coin post engraving towards the edge would suggest so. However, the largest doubt comes from the missing T on the back. It certainly seems intentional and that makes me think it was done for legal reasons. In US code title 18, section 331 it’s well covered that intentionally altering or mutilating coins is illegal. My guess would be the engraver did that as a “cover your ass” maneuver which seems a more modern fantasy artist thing to do. I have no positive proof of age either way, but if I was a buyer I would lean toward fantasy piece because of that “T”. I really like and want it to be of the time, hopefully someone has some good info.
__________________
- Justin D. Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander. Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol. |
#5
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Quote:
__________________
'Integrity is what you do when no one is looking' "The man who can keep a secret may be wise, but he is not half as wise as the man with no secrets to keep” |
#6
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The first three words of US code title 18, section 331 are "Whoever fraudulently alters..."
There is no fraud here. |
#7
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Quote:
The wear on this coin prior to engraving would likely not suggest it was done in the 19th century. It could have been in the early 1900s as suggested by the op. I simply do not know, I am only throwing out options. Other than to deface the obverse and show there was nothing but artistic reason for changing the coin I cannot guess of a reason to purposely remove the letter.
__________________
- Justin D. Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander. Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol. Last edited by JustinD; 04-14-2024 at 03:18 PM. |
#8
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Quote:
“Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States”
__________________
- Justin D. Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander. Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol. |
#9
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The coin could have been engraved in the 19th century. The obverse was altered, but the reverse was left alone. The wear on the reverse could have happened after the engraving through normal handling as with any coin. If the owner of the coin carried it with them as a memento they could very well have caused the wear, after the fact. Also, since the obverse is incised, it would be less susceptible to wear.
Last edited by GaryPassamonte; 04-14-2024 at 03:31 PM. |
#10
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Quote:
As to the proving of this without a doubt, I think it’s a high challenge without identifying the artist to date it, and that is where the initials could help vastly. The artist would be key. Without any real knowledge I would say value could only be what a buyer believes in at purchase because we have no provable facts at this point. It definitely is a interesting item.
__________________
- Justin D. Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander. Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol. |
#11
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My thoughts
Quote:
When the code speaks of diminishes, scales, or lightens that relates to the shaving gold or silver off of a coin. This was a problem in the 1800's and into the 1900's. No problem with that now. The terms fraudulently alters and falsifies would cover things like taking an 1883 V Nickel with no CENTS and giving it a gold wash and then passing it for a $5 gold piece. This was a first year coin so people were easily fooled. They quickly added the word CENTS to the coin. The line ends with "or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; In 1857 the United States passed a law that no longer allowed foreign gold and silver coins to circulate as currency in the United States. Another law allowed the mintage of the 1857 Flying Eagle Cent which was used to buy up foreign gold and silver coins no longer allowed to circulate. The missing T on the reverse. The missing T and the problem with the S looks like a "filled die" mint error to me. The die doesn't always fill evenly, and you get marks where an element is missing. If you check eBay there is an 1865 2 cent piece missing the T and S. I like the engraved 2 cent piece a lot. it looks like 1800's work but would be quite hard to prove. If it was pure fantasy, I think an 1860's date would be added. |
#12
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Quote:
__________________
- Justin D. Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander. Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol. |
#13
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There's a Rialto east of Los Angeles in Southern California. It wasn't founded under that name until the turn of the 20th century. The Los Angeles Herald ran a sports column around that time called "Rialto Gossip". Here's a version with baseball incorporated into the title/logo - https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...16/ed-1/seq-6/. I don't think the column title is a reference to the City located east of LA but an interesting coincidence.
Baseball was one word by then, not two, so the B.B.C. initials may not be applicable, but if you're thinking is that this is an old coin that was engraved by someone decades later then those are a few bread crumbs I can offer. Good luck digging for more info. |
#14
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Quote:
I would suspect that the 'T' could have been removed back then. The person may have been trying to alter the words to read something else and it did not work. Those punches into the 'S' and the gash in the '2' appear to be attempts to modify them. We will never know. The skepticism is warranted. Too many collectors in various fields look at an item and try to prove its legitimacy by what they find 'right' with an item rather than what is 'wrong' with the item. I would much rather take the latter approach than the former.
__________________
'Integrity is what you do when no one is looking' "The man who can keep a secret may be wise, but he is not half as wise as the man with no secrets to keep” |
#15
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I've seen later coins like this referred to as "hobo nickels". There are some really cool ones out there.
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#16
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There's mention of the hobo nickel, but not the potty dollar?
__________________
"Don't mistake activity for achievement." – John Wooden |
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