Anger at vintage card prices?

[parkplace33]

I am in a few group chats with other collectors. Mostly, it is fun discussions, recent pickups, etc. But in the last few weeks (and mostly this year), I am getting a sense of anger toward vintage card prices. Either when an auction ends, for sale posts, or prices at cards shows, a few members just vent. Personally, I don’t understand this. I never get bent out of over a card sale, whether I think it was too high or too low. Cards prices go up and down and I adjust based on this. I never get angry.

Sometimes, I feel like I am in the minority on this. Anyone else sense this? Does this forum get angry at prices? And if so, why.

[Leon]

I don't get angry at the prices. I* just can't buy as much. The market is the market *(unless it's manipulated). On the other hand, from my observations, T206 Cobbs have come down a little along with some other popular cards....1921 Exhibits Ruth, Goudey Ruths...and some others.

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I am in a few group chats with other collectors. Mostly, it is fun discussions, recent pickups, etc. But in the last few weeks (and mostly this year), I am getting a sense of anger toward vintage card prices. Either when an auction ends, for sale posts, or prices at cards shows, a few members just vent. Personally, I don’t understand this. I never get bent out of over a card sale, whether I think it was too high or too low. Cards prices go up and down and I adjust based on this. I never get angry.

Sometimes, I feel like I am in the minority on this. Does this forum get angry at prices? And if so, why.

[gonefishin]

The only time I get upset, not angry, is when I think back on selling my 52 Mantle and complete set of 51 Bowman's for pennies on the dollar compared to what they're selling for today!

On the other side of the coin, I sold them for a heck of a lot more than I bought them for!

I'm not a flipper, I just needed the money at the time.

I think a lot of investors, flippers, whatever tag you hang on them, are the one's a little upset of the large fluctuations in the market. I'm not in that category, so I'm ok with the prices.

It's like real estate: If you own a home you don't care what the market does. If you own a house, you watch and worry every day about the market!

[Johnny630]

I think the anger comes from assumptions that a lot of the market is not the market/price as Leon said above. Thus pricing them out or making them pay more than they believe the card is worth. Many believe it could possibly be manipulated to drive up comps/vcp. I'm at stage 5 in my process of Grief over it...I'm at acceptance.

[butchie_t]

Bummed, or disappointed maybe but hardly angry. This is a hobby, I cannot get mad or angry about card prices or it is not worth having what I have.

Butch

[Touch'EmAll]

I hear ya, am at acceptance now myself. Years ago I would scoff at anything less then PSA 7 or 8 in Post War. Now I usually have to settle for the best looking PSA 3-6 I can get if I am after Mays/Aaron. So I still cruise ebay looking for those high end for the grade. And when I get 'em occasionally they put a smile on my face - so its all ok.

[BioCRN]

Pretty much every piece of vintage I've ever bought has eventually realized the value I paid and more.

Yes, there's opportunity cost missed in overpaying by not having more funds available for more things, but my personal finances tied to the hobby do not intersect with "real life" things. Also, my hobby is also not dependent on a business model of turning over inventory.

When compounded with realized deals and odd market opportunities to flip stagnant stuff (the COVID-era graded junk wax boom, for instance) I let time sort things out for me and they generally work out to my advantage.

Not everyone has their money flow set up in the hobby like this, though. The people that need inventory movement to keep cash fluid seem to have a lot more concern about the day-to-day/month-to-month.

[packs]

I get angry only at myself for my naive attitude toward cards. I thought I’d have forever to pick up some cards and when it came to other cards my philosophy was always “well I already have a Babe Ruth why do I need another”.

[cubman1941]

Originally Posted by packs

I get angry only at myself for my naive attitude toward cards. I thought I’d have forever to pick up some cards and when it came to other cards my philosophy was always “well I already have a Babe Ruth why do I need another”.

I can relate to this as, in the 80's, I lived in Denver and became good friends with a card shop owner. A stack of 52' s came in and I had first pick. They were all in great shape. First of all, I did not like the 52's at all; second of all, I am a Cub collector. So I just took all the Cubs out and left the rest. I don't remember what I paid but it was dirt cheap compared to todays prices.

[x2drich2000]

I think this is just an extension of the general discontent with the current cost of living. Folks are angry at the cost of rent, home prices, food, concert tickets, sporting events, you name it. We all remember when things were cheap. Now we pretty much can't afford the same level of things that we use to. I don't see the point in getting angry about it. Set your priorities and spend what you can afford. For me personally, I've found it really helpful to be thankful for what I do have and to celebrate with other collectors when they are able to add to their collections.

[ullmandds]

id guess this "anger" is more evident in younger...collector/investor types. Been in this hobby over 45 years. I've made some mistakes over the decades...but the vast majority of cards I've bought have appreciated significantly. This is because I buy...and hold. The few times I've attempted "investments" to "flip"...I've lost!

just a middle aged man's opinion!

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I am in a few group chats with other collectors. Mostly, it is fun discussions, recent pickups, etc. But in the last few weeks (and mostly this year), I am getting a sense of anger toward vintage card prices. Either when an auction ends, for sale posts, or prices at cards shows, a few members just vent. Personally, I don’t understand this. I never get bent out of over a card sale, whether I think it was too high or too low. Cards prices go up and down and I adjust based on this. I never get angry.

Sometimes, I feel like I am in the minority on this. Anyone else sense this? Does this forum get angry at prices? And if so, why.

Yeah hard to get angry if the weather is too hot or too cold. Best you can do is adapt and make adjustments. There are a few members here who get bent out of shape on a regular basis when a trend develops on a particular player or issue. I guess since we all collect cards like we did when we 7 years old we cannot be expected to act much older.

[BobbyStrawberry]

More bewilderment than anger for me. Some prices are just bizarre. As it is I've become more of a watcher and less of a collector recently. At least I can enjoy the items I have..

[Musashi]

Anytime I start to get upset at vintage prices, I look at what modern collectors I paying for guys who haven't accomplished anything yet, and that calms me right down. Next to 400k+ on a Jasson Dominguez card, even my overpays look like shrewd bargains.

[ALBB]

Were not gonna take it !!

[LEHR]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

I think this is just an extension of the general discontent with the current cost of living. Folks are angry at the cost of rent, home prices, food, concert tickets, sporting events, you name it. We all remember when things were cheap. Now we pretty much can't afford the same level of things that we use to. I don't see the point in getting angry about it. Set your priorities and spend what you can afford. For me personally, I've found it really helpful to be thankful for what I do have and to celebrate with other collectors when they are able to add to their collections.

This is my general take as well.
You can spend 10 minutes on any social media platform and see hundreds of posts from people complaining about the price of everything. It's a genuine struggle for a lot of people. It always has been, but it seems like things are magnified today. I may not get to buy everything I want, and may even be buying less; but overall I'm extremely grateful for what I do have, and that I'm basically in a better financial situation than a lot of people. I may not be buying $100k+ cards (congrats to those who are), but it would take a absolute catastrophe for me to be in a situation where I couldn't make the house payment, fill up the tank, or had to stop collecting. No anger here.

[Touch'EmAll]

The last big inflationary time was way back during the Carter Adminisrtation, around 9% I think. By the mid-80's inflation had dropped and we then had the next 40 years of actually quite surprisingly low inflation. Count your blessings that we were able to accumulate the collections we have at reasonable prices before this next highest inflationary period we are in right now.

Of course, that doesn't help the younger crowd that are now in their early adulthood years. Good chance inflation eases soon, and then hope we don't see another rapid inflation time for many years to come.

Prices today are seeming like the new normal. If the younger crowd accepts this, and with luck we don't see hyper inflation for many years, then keep with the collecting and hold.

Then years down the line when this group approaches retirement, another big inflationary time will hit and we will all be saying again ... "thank goodness I bought when I did."

[calvindog]

Has no one else noticed that prices have come down considerably of late?

[jingram058]

I have never been in the hobby for investment or hoping for value increase purposes. I just like the cards and memorabilia. Would be great to be able to afford some more of these, but it is what it is. Anymore I look for beaters, and love them.

[4815162342]

Looking at VCP values prior to COVID or 10 years ago makes me tear up, but I imagine we’ll be saying the same thing in a few years about this dip that we’re currently experiencing now.

[Yoda]

Cards are a commodity just like stocks and bonds and, as such, are at the mercy of market plays. If your prized vintage card has skyrocketed, great but so has Apple stock. This goes back to value investing in any commodity. Speculation on an unproven player is gambling, where the so many imponderables exist. I will stick with dead Hof'ers.

[joshleon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Has no one else noticed that prices have come down considerably of late?

Yeah I was wondering whether OP meant "anger at high prices" or "anger at low prices"!

[bmattioli]

I try very hard not to live in the past of which can drive one crazy, but I do kick myself at times for passing on the '86/'87 Fleer Basketball wax at $10.00 a box all I wanted at the time..

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by joshleon

Yeah I was wondering whether OP meant "anger at high prices" or "anger at low prices"!

Same here...

Perhaps he can jump back in and specify.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Same here...

Perhaps he can jump back in and specify.

I was originally thinking high but it could be for both. You can decide.

[JollyElm]

"What are you rebelling against, Johnny?"

hqdefault.jpg

"Whaddaya got? Oh, and high card prices. Yes, definitely high card prices."

[Vintagedeputy]

People get mad at prices because they have a preconceived idea of what they think an item is worth based on comps, prices guides, etc. There is no absolute value on collectibles. The value of any one card or item is the agreed upon price between buyer and seller, at that exact moment in time.

People ask me all the time what my stuff is worth and I tell them that I have no idea. I don’t worry about values assigned by someone else. The day I start equating my stuff to a particular value, it then becomes a commodity instead of a collectible.

I enjoy my stuff too much for that to happen.

[brianp-beme]

I don't get angry at card prices...I take it out on the card!

Brian

[doug34-36]

You can try to take it out on the card, but what are the odds that when you wake up in the morning Bobby Ewing will step out of the shower clean-shaven and uncreased, almost as if the entire episode was merely a dream?

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I don't get angry at card prices...I take it out on the card!

Brian

[brad31]

No anger just occasional disappointment when I go strong for a card and lose out. Disappointment lasts until the next mailday when I add something else I love.

My collection already far exceeds what I dreamed In could get as a 12 year old getting into vintage. Every time I look at my cards I feel fortunate.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by doug34-36

You can try to take it out on the card, but what are the odds that when you wake up in the morning Bobby Ewing will step out of the shower clean-shaven and uncreased, almost as if the entire episode was merely a dream?

I do not allow Mr. Ewing access to the bathroom, and have sealed the bottom of its door in such a fashion that it would be impossible for him to sneak away and slide underneath it. As a further deterrent, I have set up Mr. Harry 'Trotsky' Hinchman to stand guard.

t206hinchman.jpg

Brian

[rjackson44]

If you want to talk loses look at the shiny stuff yikes

[MBH65]

Originally Posted by ALBB

Were not gonna take it !!

Dating myself a bit, but this seems appropriate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwMVMbmQBug

[Republicaninmass]

I get, though I don't agree with it. The anger..

Sellers pumping cards minutes after and auction ends upping the price by a double digit percentage can make a collector upset. High flying prices, but no interest on the BST board can make one doubt their judgement. In a rush to just get inventory even the most knowledgeable dealers overpaying.

Plenty of reason for getting upset and angry, but the problem is the person/people not the hobby.

Akin to religion, or similar to The Grateful Dead. Many Love "the man" but most hate "the fans"

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Has no one else noticed that prices have come down considerably of late?

See post #2. I own most that have come down ...
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Has no one else noticed that prices have come down considerably of late?

Cobb has most certainly come down a bunch in the last year, which impacts you disproportionately. Indeed, I think Cobb items have dipped enough that they are ripe for some good pickens/deals

[LEHR]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Has no one else noticed that prices have come down considerably of late?

There has definitely been some decline. A lot of the 19th century stuff I bid on still seems strong but I've noticed price drops in the last six months across the board in most areas, especially on common or oddball items.
I collect a lot of unopened material. There was a BBCE wrapped box that just ended in the REA auction a couple days ago that sold for $1,050 with the juice. I know someone who paid $3,600 for another BBCE authenticated box from the same issue just 15-18 months ago. Most items have not dropped that significantly for sure, but that sale stuck out to me and prices are definitely declining on a lot of stuff.

[packs]

I don't know that Cobb has dropped in the same sense as usual dips occur. It seems to me that Cobb jumped so high that people are trying to cash in on him all at the same time. As other have noticed, every auction seems to have four or five copies of every Cobb pose all up for auction at the same time. I'm sure that doesn't help keep prices high.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't know that Cobb has dropped in the same sense as usual dips occur. It seems to me that Cobb jumped so high that people are trying to cash in on him all at the same time. As other have noticed, every auction seems to have four or five copies of every Cobb pose all up for auction at the same time. I'm sure that doesn't help keep prices high.

I think this is true as well.

[obcbobd]

Anger. No?

Maybe frustration when certain cards or sets become so inflated that collecting them as a hobbyist becomes unreasonable. I wish the investment crowd would jump on something else like bit coin. I take joy in the fact that I completed the 33 Goudey set 25 years ago, so I have it to enjoy (I could/would not even attempt it now), no real joy in what some of the cards are now worth; I have other investments/savings that are for income or retirement.

The good thing is the hobby is very wide and there is plenty to collect that is affordable.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think this is true as well.

Agreed

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

I wish the investment crowd would jump on something else like bit coin.

The good thing is many of them are addicted to the flip and eventually will settle for "at least I broke even."

A huge chunk of them have no patience for a long hold or having their money tied up without actively gaining, even if those gains are just potential and on paper rather than in-hand.

A lot of the ballcard "investment bros" no longer care about people like Gary V's pumping of card investing that got a lot of sneaker and bit/alt-coin investors hyped up like they were for a few years starting in 2020. Gary V doesn't even hype them like he used to for almost a year now.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't know that Cobb has dropped in the same sense as usual dips occur. It seems to me that Cobb jumped so high that people are trying to cash in on him all at the same time. As other have noticed, every auction seems to have four or five copies of every Cobb pose all up for auction at the same time. I'm sure that doesn't help keep prices high.

In the past, auctions would refuse or advise against listing copies of the same card in similar grades. Nobody seems to care anymore

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

In the past, auctions would refuse or advise against listing copies of the same card in similar grades. Nobody seems to care anymore

Yeah we had discussed that recently. Now the house turns away nothing because otherwise it ends up with a competitor. Consignors share a lot in common with TPG submitters--they love the abuse.

[Exhibitman]

It is all cyclical. Can't get too bummed or too elated over one year. My main goal is to buy 'em where they ain't. Buy the stuff that's out of favor now and sell the stuff that is the current trend. It is nice that there is soooo much variety to choose from. That keeps collecting fresh for me.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Cobb has most certainly come down a bunch in the last year, which impacts you disproportionately. Indeed, I think Cobb items have dipped enough that they are ripe for some good pickens/deals

I have my fingers crossed. I just might be able to finally get a nice T205 Cobb.

[packs]

As a collector who enjoys getting in when the cost is down, I do think there are plenty of opportunities in the post-war realm to buy now and sell high later.

When I think of pre-war players who went underappreciated for most of the hobby's lifetime, I think of players like Lajoie and Matthewson. For as long as I could remember you could pick up the Matty T206s for what seem like dream come true bargains compared to today's prices. Now, I think you'll be paying somewhere between $400 and $500 for even a PSA 1. In the past, Matty was not very expensive at all. I bought my White Cap for $80 in the early 2000s and it has since graded a 3. The Lajoie bat off card is selling for healthy prices now too. He was selling for even less than Matty.

In the post-war world I look at players like Aaron and Mays, who both still seem to be way undervalued when you hold them up to Jackie and Satchel who have become heavy hitters.

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Anger. No?

Maybe frustration when certain cards or sets become so inflated that collecting them as a hobbyist becomes unreasonable. I wish the investment crowd would jump on something else like bit coin. I take joy in the fact that I completed the 33 Goudey set 25 years ago, so I have it to enjoy (I could/would not even attempt it now).

It seems to me that 1933 Goudeys are one of the areas still on the rise (outside of the Ruths and Gehrigs, which I think were probably more targeted by the casual investors). Each Jimmie Foxx seems to set a new record, and even the whole crowd that Frankie Frisch voted into the Hall of Fame is suddenly worth $400-500 in a PSA 4.

[doug34-36]

Great card, Brian -- the T206 Trotsky is my new new white(beard) whale!

With a Tolstoi Russian Mouthpiece reverse, of course.

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I do not allow Mr. Ewing access to the bathroom, and have sealed the bottom of its door in such a fashion that it would be impossible for him to sneak away and slide underneath it. As a further deterrent, I have set up Mr. Harry 'Trotsky' Hinchman to stand guard.

Attachment 626007

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by doug34-36

Great card, Brian -- the T206 Trotsky is my new new white(beard) whale!

With a Tolstoi Russian Mouthpiece reverse, of course.

I wish it were mine...I didn't pursue it hard enough a decade or so ago when it popped up on Ebay, so all I am left with is the scan. I didn't save the back scan, but the Tolstoi brand would of course have been Leon's smoke of choice, so I'm going to say the back was Tolstoi!

Brian