Safeguards at shows

[ClementeFanOh]

Brian- I’m unsure if your remark is tongue in cheek. Assuming it’s not, the notion of photo ID requirement isn’t a cure all. Instead, it’s one more measure to make it harder on potential thieves at shows. It’s also not alone as the only potentially controversial measure that show organizers can implement to at least make these guys consider trying their crimes at another show than their own. Identifying these steps and quantifying their cost (financial and social) is worth the discussion. I don’t care in the least of there is stronger security physical presence, video presence, and preventative measures- I’m just one guy though. Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

Todd (notfast)- okay, I’ll bite. What exactly is the liability you have mentioned more than once? Please explain the liability of, say, keeping a list of attendee names and forms of ID ( example “Trent King, Ohio driver’s license”) and then shredding it after a successful show- after no incidents have been reported, that is. I’m reading between the lines that you consider it an imposition, but that’s not the same as a liability. I’m hard pressed to think of an example of anything that is made better/more thorough without incurring some cost or extra steps. The wish to somehow will better security into existence without action is exactly that- a wish. That’s the bone of contention, I suppose. Do people want to complain without action, or actually do things that increase the possibility of safer shows? Trent King

[notfast]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Todd (notfast)- okay, I’ll bite. What exactly is the liability you have mentioned more than once? Please explain the liability of, say, keeping a list of attendee names and forms of ID ( example “Trent King, Ohio driver’s license”) and then shredding it after a successful show- after no incidents have been reported, that is. I’m reading between the lines that you consider it an imposition, but that’s not the same as a liability. I’m hard pressed to think of an example of anything that is made better/more thorough without incurring some cost or extra steps. The wish to somehow will better security into existence without action is exactly that- a wish. That’s the bone of contention, I suppose. Do people want to complain without action, or actually do things that increase the possibility of safer shows? Trent King

Any time you collect and compile personal information there is a risk of that getting into the wrong hands. Digitally, dumpster diving etc.

There’s a reason every time you enter information somewhere you agree to a whole list of terms and conditions about what happens with that information.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by notfast

Any time you collect and compile personal information there is a risk of that getting into the wrong hands. Digitally, dumpster diving etc.

There’s a reason every time you enter information somewhere you agree to a whole list of terms and conditions about what happens with that information.

I don;t want to write down information. what I'm thinking in the sign up sheet is to have ID shown/verified

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I don;t want to write down information. what I'm thinking in the sign up sheet is to have ID shown/verified

Tickets could be forced to be paid for via electronic payment which would give some sort of tracking. Combine that with entry cameras and a scanner scanning a unique ticket # and maybe you’d have something that could be traceable to a card payment that wouldn’t involve another entity needing personal information.

Edit - but then you run in to situations (like sporting events now a days) where people don’t use cards or are too young for them.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I don;t want to write down information. what I'm thinking in the sign up sheet is to have ID shown/verified

Not trying to be argumentative, but what point or purpose would looking at an id solve with no documentation? I worked my way through college as a bouncer at a couple rough bars. I looked at thousands of ids, often hundreds in a day. We had plenty of fights, even a stabbing once…not a single time ever did myself or another bouncer have a name to offer the police unless it happened to be a regular and you could come up with a first name. Checking ids only accomplished that we knew for 20 seconds they were old enough to be there. You would have needed to be Dustin Hoffman in rain man to recall who that random persons id was.

If someone asks why ids are necessary can security, unless there is a new minimum age to go to the national, really be a defensible argument? I can’t see any real benefit to glancing at an id for 10 seconds other than to just annoy people and have the door people forced into arguing with guests the entire time. Even documenting the ids, without taking a current picture of them as well like the airport it’s still fairly worthless. Having someone steal something and then handing the police a list of thousands of names and ids for some sort of assistance would result in them likely rolling their eyes.

If someone is up to no good, the idea they randomly flashed an id among 10000 other people is not going to slow them down a wink.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Not trying to be argumentative, but what point or purpose would looking at an id solve with no documentation? I worked my way through college as a bouncer at a couple rough bars. I looked at thousands of ids, often hundreds in a day. We had plenty of fights, even a stabbing once…not a single time ever did myself or another bouncer have a name to offer the police unless it happened to be a regular and you could come up with a first name. Checking ids only accomplished that we knew for 20 seconds they were old enough to be there. You would have needed to be Dustin Hoffman in rain man to recall who that random persons id was.

If someone asks why ids are necessary can security, unless there is a new minimum age to go to the national, really be a defensible argument? I can’t see any real benefit to glancing at an id for 10 seconds other than to just annoy people and have the door people forced into arguing with guests the entire time. Even documenting the ids, without taking a current picture of them as well like the airport it’s still fairly worthless. Having someone steal something and then handing the police a list of thousands of names and ids for some sort of assistance would result in them likely rolling their eyes.

If someone is up to no good, the idea they randomly flashed an id among 10000 other people is not going to slow them down a wink.

In simplest terms, I'm hosting a card show in a synagogue. We not only have the issue of potential theft (thankfully I'm not aware in all these years of anything close to being major taken except from our prize table back in the day.) We also frankly have the issue of Anti-Semitism which can pop up in ways we don't want to think about. We are not a public place and thus can have more stringent rules for people verification.

Trust me, I don't want to do this but it's something which absolutely has to be considered in today's world and it's not something I (nor the brotherhood board and the synagogue board) take lightly.

Rich

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

In simplest terms, I'm hosting a card show in a synagogue. We not only have the issue of potential theft (thankfully I'm not aware in all these years of anything close to being major taken except from our prize table back in the day.) We also frankly have the issue of Anti-Semitism which can pop up in ways we don't want to think about. We are not a public place and thus can have more stringent rules for people verification.

Trust me, I don't want to do this but it's something which absolutely has to be considered in today's world and it's not something I (nor the brotherhood board and the synagogue board) take lightly.

Rich

This is an important piece to the puzzle and does make me understand your concern, I did not realize the extra piece. I still would rather have a 150 buck Nest cam at the entrance as I think it accomplishes more and is far more intimidating to a criminal as the social media army frankly does quicker investigations than the police in many or most of these cases.

That said, the synagogue changes the dynamic. The amount of open and accepted antisemitism makes me sick now. Do as you wish, but taking those new items into account, I think the camera is more needed now. I know most people ignore or overlook it, but next time you leave the grocery store or bank notice the measurement chart next to the door. This is to provide the height info for any issues. I would add one to the entrance in the cameras view as well...even if it's painters tape marked.

Sorry you have to worry about this and it is far more important than cards.

[ClementeFanOh]

JustinD-

It is obvious that some members have noticed these large thefts at shows,
and are "kicking the tires" on ways at least to minimize the chances it
happens at their show or their booth. It's a valid question to ask. To your
comments:

1) The value of requiring valid photo ID is to discourage or prohibit those
who don't have it, and are using anonymity to their advantage to steal.
If this requirement discourages a couple idiots with bad intentions from
trying their nonsense, it's a valid idea for sure.

2) Most shows don't have 10,000 visitors. I attend a large monthly show
that routinely consists of 200 tables spread out over 2 large outbuildings.
If that show received 1000 guests and there was, say, a $100k theft, I
have direct knowledge that law enforcement wouldn't "roll their eyes" at
list of 1000 people. That list would narrow their search from practical
infinity, down to 1000- and they could peruse the list for names that
are familiar or which stand out ("which of these, is not like the others?")

The best way I can explain it in sports terms- since we are on sports card
site- is to use boxing lingo. Taken separately, none of the measures I have
seen are "knockout punches" that utterly prevent theft. They are, however,
"jabs" that annoy and wear down potential bad guys. It would be a shame
to overlook a measure that is free to implement and that could serve a
real purpose to deterring criminal behavior. In case anyone is still wondering
if there is a magical, free, instantaneous way to reduce theft at shows, the
answer is no. The question becomes, do people really wish to reduce theft
or merely wish to complain without action? Trent King

[yanks87]

Theft is an unfortunate part of shows, and with the increase in values of cards, it was only a matter of time before thieves started to look for the blind spots in a soft target like a show. Thank goodness there were cameras in Dallas, hopefully it leads to arrests.

I can remember vividly working for a dealer in the 90's, and having people swipe high dollar items. In one instance the older gentleman that I worked for vaulted over the table and chased the guy down in the lobby of the Sheraton because he had grabbed a box of Stadium Club cards.

You have to assume the worst, I still don't understand why dealers leave cards on their table overnight. Zipped up, locked down, whatever, I always take the high value cards with me. In a moment of letting my guard down in Nashville, I was passed $200 in counterfeit $20's, of course they did a good job of putting a real bill on top, but I was only marking $50's and $100's with my pen, never even gave it a second thought until I was doing my final reconciliation. It made me sick, but it is noting compared to Dallas and Strongsville.

I think it is an unfortunate part of the hobby now, and dealers need to be on the guard with product and cash, sharks are in the water and they are circling.