New PSA Terms & Conditions: Comp. Damages and Injunctive Relief for Card Doctoring

[4815162342]

PSA updated their Terms & Conditions last week to include the following language regarding card doctoring:

‘12. Doctored and Inauthentic Items; Fraud Prevention and Investigation.

(a) You represent and warrant that any item submitted for any PSA Grading Service is genuine and you have no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that the item is a “Doctored” item. You affirm your obligations with respect to Doctored items set forth in these Terms. For purposes of these Terms, “Doctor,” “Doctored” or “Doctoring” means the alteration of the appearance of an item by things such as, but not limited to, trimming, re-coloring, bleaching, power erasing, cleaning, waxing, re-backing or any other form of restoration used to enhance the appearance, condition or content of an item.

(b) You agree that you will not Doctor items or participate in any way in Doctoring items or submitting any items to PSA for grading which you know or have reason to believe have been Doctored in any way, and acknowledge that the determination as to whether an item should be authenticated or graded shall be made solely by PSA in accordance with its standards. You acknowledge that detecting Doctored items is very difficult. You acknowledge that PSA will not authenticate or grade items which, in the judgment of PSA, bear evidence of Doctoring. However, because the determination by PSA to reject such Doctored items will require a review by PSA’s personnel, you will be required to remit, as set forth herein, the standard fee for any such Doctored items that are submitted to PSA. You acknowledge that Doctoring is wrongful and inappropriate activity which is harmful to PSA, and all of your obligations in this Section 12 shall survive termination of these PSA Terms.

…

(d) You agree that PSA would suffer irreparable damages if you were to engage in Doctoring of any item and that PSA is entitled to not only compensatory damages but also preliminary and final injunctive relief for any breach of your obligation not to Doctor items or to submit Doctored items to PSA in violation of your obligations hereunder.’

https://www.psacard.com/termsandconditions

[Leon]

So all cleaning (water and a q tip etc..) is now doctoring? And I am supposed to say that in order to submit to them it is wrong and I won't do it. Nice.

Originally Posted by 4815162342

PSA updated their Terms & Conditions last week to include the following language regarding card doctoring:

‘12. Doctored and Inauthentic Items; Fraud Prevention and Investigation.

(a) You represent and warrant that any item submitted for any PSA Grading Service is genuine and you have no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that the item is a “Doctored” item. You affirm your obligations with respect to Doctored items set forth in these Terms. For purposes of these Terms, “Doctor,” “Doctored” or “Doctoring” means the alteration of the appearance of an item by things such as, but not limited to, trimming, re-coloring, bleaching, power erasing, cleaning, waxing, re-backing or any other form of restoration used to enhance the appearance, condition or content of an item.

(b) You agree that you will not Doctor items or participate in any way in Doctoring items or submitting any items to PSA for grading which you know or have reason to believe have been Doctored in any way, and acknowledge that the determination as to whether an item should be authenticated or graded shall be made solely by PSA in accordance with its standards. You acknowledge that detecting Doctored items is very difficult. You acknowledge that PSA will not authenticate or grade items which, in the judgment of PSA, bear evidence of Doctoring. However, because the determination by PSA to reject such Doctored items will require a review by PSA’s personnel, you will be required to remit, as set forth herein, the standard fee for any such Doctored items that are submitted to PSA. You acknowledge that Doctoring is wrongful and inappropriate activity which is harmful to PSA, and all of your obligations in this Section 12 shall survive termination of these PSA Terms.

…

(d) You agree that PSA would suffer irreparable damages if you were to engage in Doctoring of any item and that PSA is entitled to not only compensatory damages but also preliminary and final injunctive relief for any breach of your obligation not to Doctor items or to submit Doctored items to PSA in violation of your obligations hereunder.’

https://www.psacard.com/termsandconditions

[BobbyStrawberry]

This reads to me like they are no longer going to encapsulate trimmed cards at all anymore, which would include ones like this:

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=188543

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Leon

So all cleaning (water and a q tip etc..) is now doctoring? And I am supposed to say that in order to submit to them it is wrong and I won't do it. Nice.

I’m sure this is aimed at the marketed card cleaning solution companies that openly brag online, with pictures and video, about bumping 3 or 4 grades with PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I’m sure this is aimed at the marketed card cleaning solution companies that openly brag online, with pictures and video, about bumping 3 or 4 grades with PSA.

Kurt's Card Care or whatever it's called, the signature product of the "bro" era of card collecting. Facial hair, backwards ball cap, t shirt, multiple devices, social media accounts and apps, and some Kurt's to make your shiny into 10s. This ain't your father's hobby no more and for those of you over a certain age like me, it ain't yours either.

If only PSA actually took card doctoring more seriously and didn't just pay lip service.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kurt's Card Care or whatever it's called, the signature product of the "bro" era of card collecting. Facial hair, backwards ball cap, t shirt, multiple devices, social media accounts and apps, and some Kurt's to make your shiny into 10s. This ain't your father's hobby no more and for those of you over a certain age like me, it ain't yours either.

If only PSA actually took card doctoring more seriously and didn't just pay lip service.

You would think with some of the high end altered cards they are paying out big money on they would start taking it WAY more seriously. From reading their new terms and conditions it seemed like they might go after the submitter or is that just my uneducated take.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

You would think with some of the high end altered cards they are paying out big money on they would start taking it WAY more seriously. From reading their new terms and conditions it seemed like they might go after the submitter or is that just my uneducated take.

CU sued some coin dealers years ago for submitting doctored coins. You would think it would be a bad PR move, acknowledging they had been fooled.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

CU sued some coin dealers years ago for submitting doctored coins. You would think it would be a bad PR move, acknowledging they had been fooled.

Opinions vary greatly but for me it would be a great PR move. As a collector it would make me want to use them rather than those that do nothing to the scammers.

On the coin side I was recently watching videos and several coin guys bragged about sending in cleaned coins. Very similar to the card bro videos.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Opinions vary greatly but for me it would be a great PR move. As a collector it would make me want to use them rather than those that do nothing to the scammers.

On the coin side I was recently watching videos and several coin guys bragged about sending in cleaned coins. Very similar to the card bro videos.

Cleaned coins is a nuanced subject. It would take a Talmudic scholar to decipher PCGS' rules on what is and is not kosher.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

PSA updated their Terms & Conditions last week to include the following language regarding card doctoring:

‘12. Doctored and Inauthentic Items; Fraud Prevention and Investigation.

(a) You represent and warrant that any item submitted for any PSA Grading Service is genuine and you have no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that the item is a “Doctored” item. You affirm your obligations with respect to Doctored items set forth in these Terms. For purposes of these Terms, “Doctor,” “Doctored” or “Doctoring” means the alteration of the appearance of an item by things such as, but not limited to, trimming, re-coloring, bleaching, power erasing, cleaning, waxing, re-backing or any other form of restoration used to enhance the appearance, condition or content of an item.

(b) You agree that you will not Doctor items or participate in any way in Doctoring items or submitting any items to PSA for grading which you know or have reason to believe have been Doctored in any way, and acknowledge that the determination as to whether an item should be authenticated or graded shall be made solely by PSA in accordance with its standards. You acknowledge that detecting Doctored items is very difficult. You acknowledge that PSA will not authenticate or grade items which, in the judgment of PSA, bear evidence of Doctoring.

I joked about this comment on blowout. I'll just boldface it here. PSA is admitting that they can't detect most card doctoring.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I joked about this comment on blowout. I'll just boldface it here. PSA is admitting that they can't detect most card doctoring.

Joked or stated a fact?

[Beercan collector]

Wonder if ‘52 Robinson PSA 02023137 That went from a PSA 8 to
PSA authentic played a small part ?
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=353161

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

Wonder if ‘52 Robinson PSA 02023137 That went from a PSA 8 to
PSA authentic played a small part ?
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=353161

I find the fact that PSA has a guarantee to begin with absolutely baffling. Someone important at Collectors is either remarkably ignorant about the true extent to which cards in their holders are "doctored" or they're incapable of thinking this through to the finish line. There's a reason SGC quietly got rid of their guarantee despite it being literally in the name. PSA will either have to change their stance on card doctoring or they will have to abandon their guarantee, because they can't have both without going belly up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I find the fact that PSA has a guarantee to begin with absolutely baffling. Someone important at Collectors is either remarkably ignorant about the true extent to which cards in their holders are "doctored" or they're incapable of thinking this through to the finish line. There's a reason SGC quietly got rid of their guarantee despite it being literally in the name. PSA will either have to change their stance on card doctoring or they will have to abandon their guarantee, because they can't have both without going belly up.

Oh please Travis. They've been in business, with the same guarantee, for 33 years. They aren't going belly up and they aren't going anywhere. They just say no and limit their liability. The graders stand behind the grade. Before and after photos are not evidence. Whatever it takes. Ask A.J. Very few people are going to sue them. I promise you they have thought this through, if nothing else all these dire predictions were raised countless times during the "scandal." Joe Orlando was not stupid. Nat Turner is not stupid. Their investors are not stupid.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh please Travis. They've been in business, with the same guarantee, for 33 years. They aren't going belly up and they aren't going anywhere. They just say no and limit their liability. The graders stand behind the grade. Before and after photos are not evidence. Whatever it takes. Ask A.J. Very few people are going to sue them. I promise you they have thought this through, if nothing else all these dire predictions were raised countless times during the "scandal." Joe Orlando was not stupid. Nat Turner is not stupid. Their investors are not stupid.

And you now have a growing population of the hobby who does not give any weight to a card being altered or possibly being altered because you still need to be able to prove it, even if not in a court of law.

Anyway, most collectors almost appreciate it, it seems, because without that work having been done on that card, it would not have been available to them to buy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

CU was a public company for decades. They are now owned by very sophisticated and successful people. The notion that they don't understand the risk of their own warranty is not plausible.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

CU was a public company for decades. They are now owned by very sophisticated and successful people. The notion that they don't understand the risk of their own warranty is not plausible.

According to their terms and conditions can't they just deactivate the cert # and tell the owner to pound sand?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

CU was a public company for decades. They are now owned by very sophisticated and successful people that have millions of dollars worth of altered cards in numeric slabs in their own personal collections The notion that they don't understand the risk of their own warranty is not plausible.

I fixed your post.

These guys don't even know that their own cards are doctored lol. You think they have their finger on the pulse of the extent to which the entire high end vintage market has been doctored?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I fixed your post.

These guys don't even know that their own cards are doctored lol. You think they have their finger on the pulse of the extent to which the entire high end vintage market has been doctored?

It is not just high end vintage that is at risk to being altered but any card in any grade where taking the time to fix it yields a justifiable profit to the fixer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I fixed your post.

These guys don't even know that their own cards are doctored lol. You think they have their finger on the pulse of the extent to which the entire high end vintage market has been doctored?

Yes, I think they know. How could they not? As you well know, it's a new world and many collectors don't really care. For 33 years they've controlled their warranty exposure, I see no reason that is going to change.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, I think they know. How could they not? As you well know, it's a new world and many collectors don't really care. For 33 years they've controlled their warranty exposure, I see no reason that is going to change.

They've managed their warranty exposure by not honoring it in many cases and by being incompetent in others though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

They've managed their warranty exposure by not honoring it in many cases and by being incompetent in others though.

Right, but the point is it's entirely within their control/discretion. "The graders stand behind the grade." Now what you gonna do, sue? Good luck with that. As the old intro to the Outer Limits went, we control the horizontal, we control the vertical.