Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

[Johnphotoman]

Disclaimer when I give the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball cards as a reference…I am quoting from the 4th edition. I do not know if any information has changed with new information. Clearly there is some information in the catalog that is out of date. John

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Disclaimer when I give the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball cards as a reference…I am quoting from the 4th edition. I do not know if any information has changed with new information. Clearly there is some information in the catalog that is out of date. John

John, here's what's in the most recent (6th edition 2016) Standard Catalog for the Bond Bread and related cards.

[Pat R]

The other page didn't load here's that one

[Johnphotoman]

Thank you, Pat R- great work. It is almost the same as the 4th edition going off the top of my head. Thank John

[butchie_t]

The attached scan is from the Sacred 2011 Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards Edited by the His Excellency Demigod Bob Lemke.

Page 42 of the hymnal. The write up is word for word the same in both books. The only difference is that the 24 Square-Cornered Cards were dropped from being listed.

Take a look at the bottom of the right side of the scan.... 24 Square-Cornered Reprints.

Things that make ya' go hmmmmmmm.......

Butch

[Exhibitman]

One of the problems inherent in this sort of analysis is that it is inductive: we generalize from specific items to the entire issue. That works to a limited extent when there are limited options. Ted's logic on the issues can be broken down as follows:

I collected the rounded corner, glossier, thicker cards from bags of bread in 1947.

I did not collect the square cornered cards on thinner stock from bags of bread in 1947.

Therefore, the latter were not produced in 1947.

You see the error? Putting it in a different context, I didn't collect 1972 Topps high numbers in 1972, not because they were not produced in 1972 but because I was seven and they weren't available in the two or three candy stores where my parents took me to buy cards in 1972. I got my first ones in 1977 when my aunt in DC sent me a shoebox full of cards she found in an antique store, and they were mostly 1972 Topps and mostly final series 1972 Topps (having multiple Carew, Traded and Awards cards in 1977 in my neighborhood in Encino CA in 1977, not a bad thing).

One thing I like about the hypothesis that Bond licensed the cards from Aarco rather than owning the IP on them is that it fits with the physical evidence that allows for other issues and variations that Aarco licensed, like the 2x sided perforated sheets that were made under the Elgee name. Similar to the many brand variations on the Mendelsohn cards in the 'teens.

Among the variations is the possibility that Bond specified what it wanted for its cards: rounded corners and a specific card stock and finish. My very first books were self-published before on-demand publishing existed, so I had to have them printed and then sell them myself at retail. I sat down with the printer and decided on the parameters of the product: the binding, the paper, etc. That's how printers know what to print. They produce proofs (the uncut cover proof from my first printed book is in a frame at my office), have the customers review them, and nail down the approved specs before they run the items. Printers can handle different stocks and finishes, so it seems reasonable that Aarco could make both cards that are intended for the bread bags and cards that are not, at the same approximate time, depending in the customer's desires. It also allows for the stock variation in the Festberg find: different specs. Rather than allowing for this possibility, Ted went with the exclusive conclusion he favored.

The Cooper thing is another inductive leap that never sat well with me. Cooper with Cincy, that's an anachronism for a 1947 card, but Cooper with NYG is not. An earlier potential does not rule out a later one, only vice versa does.

Also, I brought to Ted's attention that there are movie stars with the same rounded corner-different stock. He was surprised to hear this. Again, he never saw them so he was unaware of them. Understandable since we were just kids when we got our various product cards out of the bags. I never knew there were two editions of the Kellogg's ATG 3D cards, because I got mine from Danish Go Rounds (my mother's idea of a breakfast) in 1972 and had never seen the 1970 Rold Gold pretzel cards. Why? Because we didn't buy Rold Gold pretzels in 1970. Visual Panographics made both sets using the Xograph technology and licensed them to different companies at different times with just the copyright dates changed.

Now, before anyone leaps to Ted's defense because he isn't here to defend his positions himself and I didn't challenge him when he was alive, a word of explanation is in order. Ted was aggressively adamant about his analysis, and I (and other collectors who discussed it back in the day) did not consider it to be a worthwhile use of time and energy to battle with him over these rather arcane issues. When dealing with Ted, the least disruptive course was to inject facts when possible and not engage in the melees that invariably followed flat-out telling him he was wrong.

On the issue of the Standard Catalog, a bit of context may be useful. The catalog was put together by Bob Lemke using the work product of "principal contributors". Like me. Around 20 years ago, I got sick of the same BS in the Exhibit card listings year after year and Bob offered to let me try to fix it. The way Bob did it, pre-digital, was to send out a printout of the listing and you would annotate it and send it back. I fixed a lot of problems with the listings and added in a lot of variations, but my work was incomplete and sometimes inaccurate. That's the nature of the beast: we all try to build on and refine the work of our predecessors (shout out to Elwood "Woody" Scharf here). There was also a limit to what the editors of the catalog would or could fit into the header, so the catalog was not a place for nuanced discussions. Nobody who was willing to do the work knew anything more, so my version got into print and stayed in print. My work with the issues in my Exhibit book was partly done to better document and explain these cards. In other words, what has become 'canon' with collectors via the Standard Catalog is merely the collective work of collectors like me. It isn't fixed, it isn't divinely inspired, so it isn't the final word on any subject. There is only one final word on a subject, and we all know who has it: our wives.

[Johnphotoman]

Thanks, Exhibitman, My upcoming post deals with much of what you just said. I
will make many of the points you just did. Thanks John

[butchie_t]

HAHAH!!!

Check out this eBay link I just came across today… Look familiar to anyone???

This person bought theirs initially in May of 89 from the same place BCS. Sooooo they (BCS) had a few of these sets…..which stands to reason.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/17675285453...Bk9SR8acv8f-ZA


Butch

[Johnphotoman]

A big thanks goes out to Pat R and butchie t. I think as we work together, we can have more confidence and a better understanding in the Bond Bread cards. I hope you guys agree. Thanks John

[Johnphotoman]

I am working on putting together a basis for card thickness and color of the back of cards on the sets I have. Trying to find an Ivory card that is from the Festberg card set and a couple of others I do not have. A foundation that will support the underlying idea on how to tell what we as collectors call "Bond Bread cards. John

[Johnphotoman]

While we are disgusting letters, and people who brought cards in the 1980 and 1990 from ads, Mfil5 posted in the original thread- post #140,141,143. The letter from The Sporting News letter, from the 1980s.

Quote: Mfil5 - “ Hello everyone, my uncle bought a set of these circa 1988 and we've been wondering for quite some time if these were the actual '47 card set. Alas we now realize that these are most likely not. My question is, are they worth anything and if so, what? Also did anyone else buy from the same people? I've attatched pics of the letter that came with the cards and of the cards themselves. Any info would be much appreciated.”

In post 143 Mfil5: “Thanks for the response, after doing some digging I found that the guy that my uncle bought them from, Stanley Apfelbaum, was a "controversial" coin dealer before being barred from that and then moved on to sports memorabilia sometime in the 80s. Did anyone else buy from Mr. Apfelbaum's Rookie Card Club in the late 80s? And if so does anyone know if they were legit? The whole story behind these cards is really interesting and I'm just trying to piece all of this together.”

I would say, the cards from The Sporting News are from the Festberg find by looking at the images. It appears that this guy Stanley Apfelbaum was pawning the BB cards off as the real deal. (BOND BREAD).

Why? I do not understand why? He should have sold them for what they were. I am guessing he thought the Festberg cards were some kind of reprint and tried to make a quick buck.

I did find it interesting in what Ted Z said: “Your cards on display in Posts #141, 142 & 143 exactly coincide with my list of the 24 cards in the 1980's find by David Festberg. Furthermore the backs of these cards appear to be "toned" (instead of bright white). Therefore, I would conclude that these cards
are not from the original 1949 issued set.” I just do not understand the “1949 issued set”. I have not seen any evidence for a 1949 issue.

“What are they worth ? If they get graded and the flip identifies them wrongly as "1947 Bond Bread"......it's anyone's guess ? ?” (Ted Z).

I would say to Mfil5, treasure what you have, you have a part of baseball history. Remember value is in the eye of the beholder. They are worth more as they are, they do not need to be graded and then flipped, or wrongly identified. John

[Johnphotoman]

Can you guess what card belongs to what set? The cards are from my collection, and all five are different colors. As you can see two are Exhibit cards. But do match color in a set of "Bond Bread" cards. I am trying to buy the cards to match the color of the Exhibit cards I found one, looking for the other. More to come on this. Remember lighting and posting can change the way the card looks, this does not represent the true color of the cards, but it is a good guide.

Answer to come later. John