Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

[Johnphotoman]

Information on the old Ted Z thread appears to be mishandled, misquoted and misdirected.

Quotes for Ted Z:

Post #8 “There is a significant difference in the cardboard stock used in the original 1947 Bond Bread cards vs. the subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE cards. When you compare these cards, you'll immediately notice......the backs of the 1947 cards have retained their original white color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.”

At first Ted Z called the Sports Star cards an unknown set from 1949 -1950.Where does he get the date of 1949-50, I have come to believe it just so Ted Z can say the other card sets can not be from 1947?

The unknown set…has a toned effect, Ted Z used this description a lot, almost on every card that was not a Bond Bread card. (has a toned effect). Stay with me, I will explain this tone effect.

Post #11 “Also, note the difference in the width of the Bond Bread Jansen card vs its SQUARE card counterpart. The
Bond Bread cards are consistently 1/16 th of an inch narrower.”

Ted Z called these square cards- (SQUARE card counterpart)
1949-1950 Sports Star cards, he went on to say “note the difference in the width of the Bond Bread Jansen card vs its SQUARE card counterpart”. Yes they were different in size, because there were perforated, due-sided cards; they were not 1949-1950 Sports Star cards. We have to ask…why he did not show the backs, (toned effect) because they were printed on two sides, there was no toned effect, I am sorry, but he had to know what he was saying.

Post #53 “it's my understanding that only 24 cards (22 bb and joe louis & primo carnera) were in the sets that dave festberg sold.is this true for the set you have? you may be right about the cards in festburg's "find" not being "reprints"; however, illustrated here is the problem i have with the "festburg cards".

He then says, “Note the difference in the discolored cardboard of the festburg "find" card.”

Where did Ted Z get his understanding that there were 24 cards in the Festberg cards? He did say they might not be reprints. He says note the discolored cardboard of the festburg "find" card.” Stay with me, I will explain the so-called discolored cardboard.

Interestingly enough Ted Z did post images of the backs of the cards to show us what he was talking about, as he called them; 1947 Bond Bread, 1949 Sports Star Subject, and the Festbutg find. All have white backs except the Festburg cards, they have what Ted Z called discolored cardboard.

Post #72 “I'm still researching this Sports Star Subjects set. I have yet to find any of the 4 packets containing 12 cards each
that these Square cards were sold in. I've seen (or had) several of the individual cards (including the Walker Cooper card). Here's my Rizzuto and a sample of the Movie Star issue (circa 1949-1950.” I have a near complete set of the Movie Stars.”

Then he says, “Refer to post #8 in this thread to distinguish the original (1949) Square cards from the "Festberg find" Square reprint cards with respect to the difference in the color of their backs (white vs. toned).”

He never saw the Sports Star Subjects sold in boxes, therefore everybody who has seen them must be wrong. Where does he come up with a 1949-1950 date for these cards? The Sports Star Subject cards are from 1947. Notice he says,”
The original (1949) Square cards are from the "Festberg find" Square reprint cards. Reprints? Is he implying that all square cards are reprints and from the Festberg find? That just doesn't make any sense. Maybe I am misreading it.

What have we gained from all this: Ted Z implies there are original (1949) Square cards - that are from the "Festberg find." But are some kind of reprints.

What are we to do, to refer to post 8 to distinguish the 1947 original Festberg, from the 1949 subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE cards. (“Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects” cards.)

How do we distinguish between the two? By the backs. “with respect to the difference in the color of their backs (white vs. toned).”

In this statement Ted Z implies that the unknown square backs are toned, not the original Festberg cards.This does go against all the images we have for the (unknown square backs) -which we now know are the “Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects” cards. Every image has white backs.
Note what Ted Z said in post #53, the Festberg cards had discolored cardboard.

Maybe Ted Z misspoke… I can tell it is hard to keep everything straight, I myself have placed wrong images with wrong information in this thread. But I always have tried to fix it. With Ted Z, it's like he wants to twist the information on purpose. Not to speak Ill of the dead. That is just my opinion.

Post #136 “These Bond Bread (Rounded corners) cards were available from Bond Bread packages to us kids in my neighborhood in 1947 and 1948. My research indicates that circa 1949 the Square versions of these B/W cards were available. These Square cards were never available
in our neighborhood. Rounded or Square, these 48-card issues were printed on good quality cardboard which has remained WHITE for almost 70 years.”

“Circa 1980, David Festberg (hobby dealer) discovered in a North Jersey warehouse a box (or boxes) containing 1000's of B/W (Square cornered) cards similar to the above cards. However,

1....there were only 24 (of the 48) subjects in this find.

2....these 24 cards were printed on an inferior cardboard stock, as these cards are thinner than the 1947 and 1949 issues.
And, the backs of the cards are "TONED", instead of WHITE.

Furthermore, when you compare the original cards (1947 & 1949) with the cards from Festberg's find, it's quite obvious that the original cards have a noticeable B/W contrast. Where the Festberg cards' images are somewhat "faded"....indicative of reprints.”

Ted Z said, My research indicates that circa 1949 the Square versions of these B/W cards were available. These Square cards were never available in our neighborhood.
What about the people who said they had collected these square cards in 1947. Oh that's right, those square cards were never available in his neighborhood, therefore they were only available only after 1949.

Where to begin- “these 24 cards were printed on an inferior cardboard stock, as these cards are thinner than the 1947 and 1949 issues. And, the backs of the cards are "TONED", instead of WHITE. I have personally gauged the paper stock with a micrometer and they are the same, yes some feel a little thicker, but they are not.

Notice that the backs are toned and not the so-called discolored cardboard. The next statement # 2…takes the cake, go back and read it for yourself.

Post #212 “As you know, the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards have bright white backs. The re-printed (24 cards) from
The "Festberg find" have toned backs. If the bottom Robinson in your scan has a toned back (as I suspect)
it has been faked to look like an original 1947 BOND BREAD card by someone who rounded it's corners.”

Ted Z shows us images of the toned backs of the Festberg cards look like. Ted Z called the card in question a fake because he thinks someone rounded its corners. Wrong it is just part of the die-cutting process, cards do not always come out the same every time. In spite of what Ted Z says, he even posted images right from his collection that look just like the sample from Gobucsmagic74. Again he says “The re-printed (24 cards) from The "Festberg find" More on this later.

Ted Zanidakis and others had posted about the backs of the cards many times…as the way to tell some of the BB sets apart. I do believe this is right, we have enough samples of images to go by. I believe we now can begin to separate the cards into what group a card belongs in.

I want to concentrate on the statements: The 1947 cards are slightly thicker, and the backs of the 1947 cards have retained their original white color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.

Too bad Ted did not use a gauge to see the thickness and not go by how thick they feel. You would think if the cards were going to be inserted into loaves of bread they would be thinner. As many people had attested to in the thread. I can not find the post, but many people said the Bond Bread cards were actually thinner than the other cards they collected. There are those who did not agree with Ted.

Now as for the “1947 cards have retained their original white color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.” There was no tone effect, just different color paper stock, the images provided in this post will prove this out. A toned card would not be so evenly toned through the card. From what I can deduce some cards were printed on white stock, bright white stock, Ivory color stock, gray shade of stock. You can see some toning on the images, but it is what you would expect cards to look like from 1947. Yes it is hard to tell the color of cards by just looking at the images on a computer.

Now let’s look at what Ted said about the Festberg cards: “As you know, the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards have bright white backs. The re-printed (24 cards) from the "Festberg find" have toned backs.” No, wait he said, the Festberg cards had discolored cardboard. Just as long they were no white. His own images show that the Festberg cards were printed on Ivory, or Beige Paper Stock. We have many images not just from ted Z that show this.

Therefore we can rule-out all the cards printed on any other paper stock than Ivory or Beige stock. Like the cards butchie t posted. In the next post I will go over these cards in more detail.

Quote from Post #412 -from butchie t: “Here is my Jackie Robinson, front and back for comparison. I purchased this along with the other 23 way back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society. What I know up to now, it is part of the Festberg find.”

This question is for butchie t: how did you come to believe your cards are from the Festberg find? I will have more questions in upcoming posts for you butchie t. John

Images- first is Bond Bread and Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects. second Bond Bread and Festberg. third is Bond Bread, Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects, Festberg. forth squared Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects. Remember the images are not true colors, you need the originals to see that, use for comparison only.

[Johnphotoman]

Images of the Festberg cards, look at how the images can appear different in color. Understand the images we see are not the true color. But we can use these cards as a guide, if you see Ivory or Beige color cards- I would place them in the Festberg find. John

PS the image in the middle shows a Bond Bread card with a Festberg card.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Quote from Post #412 -from butchie t: “Here is my Jackie Robinson, front and back for comparison. I purchased this along with the other 23 way back in May of 1990 from the Baseball Card Society. What I know up to now, it is part of the Festberg find.”

This question is for butchie t: how did you come to believe your cards are from the Festberg find? I will have more questions in upcoming posts for you butchie t. John

John,

My answer to you on the 'why I believed' is based on:
1. Ignorance
2. Not enough information coming into that thread back then.
3. The letter I received when I was a member of the Baseball Card Society. Assumption my my part connecting Festberg to my card set.

Excerpt here (Page 2 of what I called the Feldstein Letter(he wrote it.):

"All the baseball cards they produced that weren't put in bread
packages were stored in a dusty warehouse and, quite literally,
forgotten about when they went out of business. Many years later a
famous collector discovered the cards in the warehouse and snapped up
all of them. He died a few months ago and his widow offered us the
card sets that remained. "

///Question: Has there ever been a determination of who this famous collector is? (Since it was possibly not Festburg?)///

In my quest to find out more about this set I bought back in 1990, I searched and came across this website... And the famous or infamous thread on the Bond Card questions. Based on what I read and my ignorance, I applied the find to the Festburg Find.

I joined the site at that time and made my initial posts of what I had purchased.

I could not tie the color of back of my cards to anything substantial, so, I figured Festburg was the logical fit at the time, based solely on the thread.

While I may have changed my opinion since then, I'm still not exactly sure the origin of what I have. That is just me either hoping or injected doubt from additional information that has been discussed after that thread was basically closed.


One thing I have outstanding questions I have not seen discussed is card stock used and the thickness of a card stock from a bond Bread card verses a Sports Star Subject set, verses a Festberg find card.

My thoughts on this:

1. All three card stock thicknesses are different.
2. Bond and Sports card stock measure the same thickness
3. Sports card stock and the Festberg card stock are the same thickness.

There is probably another option here but I would believe that card stock and the thickness of that card stock can be a data point to rule in or out certain items.

And from all the above, my own selfish reason that I want to believe the set I bought can be designated and dated to the 47 era. Thus making my cards worth more. Right now they are a $255.00 oddity. Still ain't selling them though.

Butch Turner

[Exhibitman]

I try to follow the physical evidence as best as I can when it comes to card classification and analysis. All of the anecdotal accounts not directly from the speaker's own experience are just hearsay. Ted said he got his cards out of bread bags in 1947, that's entirely credible eyewitness testimony. Sone guy telling some guy that a third guy told him something, not credible evidence.

[Johnphotoman]

Exhibitman- I do agree with you about credible eyewitness testimony. I talked to old-timers who said they collected Exhibit cards from Exhibit (ESCO) arcade machines. Images like the images we call Bond Bread, this is a credible eyewitness account, not some guy telling some guy who told me.

That is why I never really believed the Exhibit cards were Bond Bread cards. This is not proof that ESCO printed the Exhibit cards. But - that the images on the Bond Bread cards were used on other printed cards.

Back then I never kept good records like, the names or places on who told me what. My notes say something like this: I met this guy at the Eastpoint show who said, “I remember getting cards that looked like that from the Exhibit penny arcade machines.” This is after I showed some 8x10 black white photos. Since then I have matched many of my photos to BB cards, I am talking about the exact same images. Like Exhibit cards, but photo that match the cards. John

PS I will post the images that I believed I showed, if this would help.

[Johnphotoman]

Exhibit card: Notice it says- An Exhibit card in the bottom left corner, and Made in the USA in the bottom right corner. John

[Johnphotoman]

This is the photo I have. It is an 8x10, John

[Johnphotoman]

Photo and Exhibit card.