OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Well, the Twins lost. Can't help but wonder what would have occurred had they called up Liriano a bit sooner -- he went 10-0 in Triple A, was hitting 97 on the gun -- but was forced to file a grievance to force the Twins' cheap-ass owner to call him up sooner. Oh well, I guess Pohlad saved a few bucks by putting off Liriano's arbitration eligibility. I'm sure it was worth it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Todd Schultz

While all Twins fans are hoping for the best, Liriano's earlier callup would almost certainly made no difference. A few points to ponder.

1. Liriano would have made his three years of service had he performed well for the Twins throughout '08. Instead, he showed up late for training camp due to a visa problem relating to a DUI arrest from '06. Having more than a year to figure out and make sure he was in everyone's good legal graces before the '08 season, he mucked up.

2. Liriano made the squad out of Spring Training, and again, if he performs consistently, there's no question about his arbitration eligibility. The Twins gave him the ball, and he sucked--- 0-3 with a double digit ERA. They sent him down, where he immediately sucked some more-- 7 earned in 8 1/3 innings over two starts. Once May 24th passed, ie, while he was still awful, there were not enough games remaining in the season for Liriano to reach the three-years service requirement.

3. There are some exceptions to the three year requirement, for a select few known as the Super Two players. A decent article on the subject and especially as relates to Liriano is found here: http://www.twinkietown.com/2008/7/20/575451/greg-genske-wrong-about-ev
Liriano remained inconsistent at Rochester, and the author expalins well what happened:

"On June 25, Liriano was coming off four quality starts since his last trainwreck, and he been called up that day, he'd have been a lock for Super Two status. Instead, he stayed in Rochester and produced two of his worst starts of the season on June 25 and 30, allowing 10 ER in 10.1 IP — and most troubling, giving up four home runs in those two games. Had the Twins called up Liriano for his next start on July 5, he still would have had a good chance to reach Super Two status — but what team calls up a pitcher after two straight trainwrecks in the minors? Only a team desperate for starting pitching, which the Twins obviously were not. Liriano bounced back with a solid start on July 5, and another on July 10, but by then it was already too late. Even had the Twins promoted him to start on July 10 — following his one good start after the two trainwrecks — he still would have ended the season with at most 2.125 days of service time, almost certainly under the Super Two threshold."

4. It is important to note that this situation hardly screams of injustice to the player. The Twins kept Liriano on the 40 man roster and thereby gave him service eligibility for all of 2007 and a large chunk of 2006 when he was on the DL and unable to lift his arm and pitch for ANYBODY, major or minor league. In other words, Francisco had more time on the DL than on any roster, yet got credit for that entire time while contributing nothing to the team.

5. At the time his agent cried foul against the team, the Twins had just gone 21-7 in their last 28 games. Noboby messes with the chemistry of a team playing .750 ball. Given how he had hardly played in two years on the big club and had sucked in the early part of the year, it would almost certainly have created ill will on the team to see Liriano promoted at someone else's expense when "it ain't broken".

6. Liriano remains unproven as a full-year starter, and got pounded in two of his last three starts--all in the heat of the September pennant race. While he may or may not be the stopper on this staff, he is not as good as Baker right now, and probably not as good as Slowey either.

In sum, Liriano should focus on getting better, more consistent and remaining healthy, not trumpeting that the cheap Twins are out to cheat him. The team has been more than fair with him, and will remain so.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Instead of picking up 5 of baseball's worst retreads, Livan Hernandez, Craig Monroe, Mike Lamb, Carl Everett and Eddie Guardado, if they had just spent a little of the money they saved on not re-signing Torii Hunter and not keeping Johann Santana and acquired a frigging power hitting 3b or lf, they would have won easily. Punch and judy hitting will just carry you so far. Last in the majors in homerun, they were the modern version of the hitless wonders White Sox of the early 1900's.
Gardenhire is also the most overrated manager in baseball. Nice guy, loved by his players but he tries to be a poor man's Tony LaRusso without Tony's brains. Everything is by the book. His record in big games is horrific.
A shame, the boys deserved better....

[Archive]

Posted By: Todd Schultz

they overachieved this year. They are very young and have tremendous upside. They probably have a surplus of starting pitching--Humber came along nicely thank you-- and if Neshek can get healthy, their pen should shore up nicely. If anything, I'd trade Liriano to get a big stick on the left side of the infield. Many still seem enamored of his stuff, and the Twins can afford to move him if teams want to drool all over themselves. I wouldn't give him away because he could change for the better, but right now he remains a 100 pitch guy who usually can't spread those 100 through more than 6 innings. We really don't have much other trade bait except for Nathan (bad idea)or possibly Kubel, so maybe open up the wallet for a free agent 3B or SS such as can be reasonably afforded. Go Twins!!!

Edited to add: BTW, it was Adam Everett, not Carl, who they "added" this year. He had a couple shining moments, but Carl would have been better, maybe even Chad Everett. And you're right, while Gardy works magic with the kids year after year, his decision-making on the field is usually unimaginative t othe point where he probably costs them some games. Having watched alot of baseball these past few yers on Direct TV though, I can tell you there are many many managers who are far worse, some scarily so.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yeah, I guess keeping a guy down in the minors who was 10-0 with a 2.67 ERA was better than using a worthless Livan Hernandez, who posted a 4-6 record in 11 starts with an ERA of around 6.50 -- until he was released. Hmmm....somehow I suspect that if Liriano was brought up when he was only 5-0 those extra 5 major league starts instead of using Hernandez might have made a 1 game difference.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ed Hans

Todd,
Gotta disagree about trading Liriano. He struck out 188 in 199 innings this year, his first full season after the surgery. He's only 25 and has electric stuff. You just don't trade young pitchers with his upside. They don't come around that often.

[Archive]

Posted By: Todd Schultz

Jeff, the Twins missed winning the division by one game, so certainly, one can pick any particular game all season where the starter got torched and argue that Liriano would have been the difference. You might also argue that the team should have benched Liriano for his final start, when a win could have put the Twins in the driver's seat, but where instead he got lit to the tune of 11 hits and 6 earned in 4 1/3 innings pitched to the Royals.

Livan Hernandez won 10 games for the team in half a season. He ate innings willingly, even when getting bashed, and was considered a great influence in the clubhouse for the young arms. As for the 4-6 stretch you look back upon, the offense scored two or fewer runs in three of those losses, and, during that part of the calendar, Liriano himself was getting torched twice in Rochester--see above.

I already showed the decision-making process the Twins organization used, and Twins fans have no regrets about Liriano was handled. If anything, the team might wish it had called up Denard Span earlier. They wrestled with that issue for some time, as Span was supposed to play for the Olympic team and would have if the Twins could have kept him in Rochester. Span, who very much wanted to play for team USA, kept his mouth shut, played hard, and turned into a dynamic player with a very bright future. He too will be rewarded by the Twins.

Ed, don't get me wrong. I certainly would like to keep Liriano. I'm just saying they have little in the way of trade bait, and they badly need pop on the left side. I believe everyone overvalues him now. The K numbers you cite were mostly in the minors, and his walks were up (Twins pitchers don't walk hitters, they were first in MLB by a lot). Frankly, his WHIP was fourth best in the rotation, well behind Baker and Slowey and even trailing Blackburn--all of whom are young and full of potential too. I'll leave it to the organization on this, as their track record in evaluating talent and doing well in trades is well established and envied by many. It's a good problem to have-keep an apparent stud starter or trade him for great value--that's for sure.