Colgan Proofs/Squares

[nolemmings]

It appears from the Old Cardboard checklist that there are several confirmed square cards of players who are depicted on more than one team in Colgans (like Babb), and that in each instance, the square card is captioned with the same team as the e254 Colgans, not the later e270. This suggests that these were made before Autosales took over the Colgan brand.

[DixieBaseball]

Todd - I went back through and read some good observations in the thread and John Remington made mention of Daubert being with Memphis only in 1909. I looked it up on baseballreference and it appears that Daubert spent the last 1/3rd of the season in Toledo and the first 2/3rds of the season in Memphis. So, with Daubert being depicted with Memphis, that seems to answer the time frame for Colgan's (1909) and Autosales...

One thing I find interesting that stands out, there is only 1 southern league team represented in this issue and that of course is Memphis. Why only Memphis ? Perhaps this was a test issue, as someone suggested earlier in the thread. Also, in looking at the SCD, there are 3 players from Memphis : Babb, Bauerwald, and Daubert that are depicted on squares. In virtually every other T or E set, when 1 southern league team like Memphis has players in that set, usually Nashville or other Southern League teams are featured. This set screams test issue or production shut down after a very short run of squares hit the market or advertising examples, salesman samples, etc. If this was a Colgan's issue where are the 2 Nashville players, like in the E254 set ? Where are the other Southern League examples ? The SCD from 2009 shows 49 different players. If anyone has an 10 or 11 SCD, it would be interesting to see if more have been added...

[nolemmings]

It's my understanding that Colgan's printed e254s from 1909-1911, and that Autosales did not get involved until e270. All of the square Colgans seem to correspond to the 1909 e254. I can't explain the absence of Atlanta Crackers, but maybe the reason there are no other Southern Association/Southern League square Colgans (except Memphis as you noted) is because there were no corresponding 1909 e254s for those players. It appears the Birmingham and Chatt players would have been printed after 1909, and while the two Nashville players were there in '09, they were also there in 1910---maybe their e254s were not issued until then. I'm just going on some research from Baseballreference.com tonight, so if you have better info, then I'll gladly defer.

[FrankWakefield]

I always worry when someone starts dating an issue by the team indicated for a depicted player. I usually think of Willie Mays. He's up with the New York Giants in 1951. The Giants move to San Francisco for the 1958 season, Willie moves with them. A card of Mays in 1954 could show Willie with an "NY Giants" hat. But so could a card from 1964 or 1974. In May of 1972 he was traded to the NY Mets. So a 1974 card could show him with any of the 3 teams. But, if a card shows him with a "NY Mets" hat, then it seems highly likely that the card would be from 1972 or afterward.

My recollection is that Auto Sales got involved around 1912. Somewhere there's a thread about the tins that would fine tune that date. I think the round cards were still going into tins then.

Maybe the square cards were a regional issue, or maybe in a few regions... I once thought there was only one of each back when I thought they were proofs. But sometime I saw where one of the square ones was offered for sale when I knew the fellow who already had that one, so I figured there must be more than one of at least some of the players depicted. Since then I think I've seen other duplicates. I still lean toward the square ones being something that came out on a limited basis after the Colgan's issue.

In my American Card Catalog, Mr. Burdick has E254 Stars of the Diamond, Colgans Chips 1 1/2 round b&w. E255 is taken, it is for Tradesmen, Kis-Me Gum. E270 Baseball Players, Violet or mint chips, 1 3/8 round, 2 series. In my book E286 Ju Ju Drums is the last E card listed. Maybe these square cards should be E287's.

[nolemmings]

I don't disagree that dating cards by team affiliations is imprecise; still, I find your example inapposite. You might see a Willie Mays card with an old photo, but it is not the photo that's important, it's the caption. I doubt you'd see a 1973 Mays card with a New York Giants caption, regardless of photo.

Here these captions or nameplates have team affiliations that can be traced to 1909. In several instances--more than a half dozen-- there were Colgans cards made of these players with updated team affiliations. If you already have a team change for a player say by 1912, why not release your "square" card showing the new team since you took the time to issue a round one with the change? Sure it's possible that this was just old inventory from several years earlier, but it seems at least as likely to me that these were printed and released in 1909. I would be interested in learning why you think the cards were issued after Autosales was finished with Colgans.

[FrankWakefield]

In 1993 the Upper Deck Heroes of Baseball cards could have had a Mays New York Giants caption.

But if Mays gets back into baseball, and becomes a special coach for the Colorado Rockies, and they made a card of him in a Rockies uniform, then we'd know that the card must be after the 1970s or that the card maker was big time omniscient.

So to me, captions don't mean all that much. Look at Roy Ellam's caption in T206. Still, I understand what you're saying about them... such as Hub Perdue's caption on his 1915 Cracker Jack card has him with St. Louis, even though he's wearing a Braves uniform from when he was with Boston at the beginning of 1914.

[DixieBaseball]

Frank - I understand your thoughts and anything is possible...
Todd - What you are saying makes sense on the Chatt & B'Ham teams, and Nashville could be 1910, so that leaves us with Atlanta not being featured from 1909.... Perhaps these are Samples that never were produced in quantity due to lack of interest in product/candy/card,etc. or market they were being sold in had little interest in the square/candy,etc. (This could explain why there seems to be no more than a few examples of any one player. Since multiple cards exist which takes away the proof theory, I would love to see 3 or 4 of any one player. It does not seem likely unless someone has been hoarding these for 15 years or longer as I recall maybe seeing a few dozen of these over the last several years.
FYI - In reviewing all the Colgan's Square images vs the Colgan's Chip images, I did find one inconsistency. Oddly enough, Daubert's image is different, possibly reversed, on the Colgan's square. Has anyone ever caught this ? We know that all the images are the identical from Chips to squares, but has anyone seen a reverse image ? (Simple mistake from the negative, perhaps in production ?) Maybe these images are slightly different and not reversed. Is this the only image that is different in the Square set ? Take a look-see :