The Value of the 8.5 Grade--One of My Largest Trades Ever

[Davalillo]

I would reiterate my opinion that the view that a substantial percentage of pre-war cards graded psa 8 or sgc 88 have been altered is a view that is limited to a few people on this board and buy in large they don't buy high end graded cards. So for the sake of argument who cares what they think when it comes to the market. Furthermore, the idea that that an independent third party grader needs to come in and authenticate the graded cards is crazy because the people who are buying the high end graded cards don't see it as a problem.

I would not pay more for a card that is authenticated by a third party and I doubt if anyone else who is truly buying cards would either. I really don't want to know how many of my 30,000 cards are altered in some way. I believe not many. I remember sending an e-mail a couple of years ago to a huge buyer of vintage 8s and 9s and asking him if he was concerned. He relied that he did not care if the cards that were 8s or 9s were altered or not and that PSA gets it right the vast majority of the time and if there were some altered cards in psa 8 or 9 holders big deal.

I also am of the belief that if one includes all types of alteration, that low-to-mid grade cards have a higher percentage altered than high grade. Although as I remember in the past Greg told me I was wrong here so if he says I am perhaps I am?

Lastly, and forgive me Leon if I am misrepresenting a private conversation, but at the National Leon asked me why don't you come back to net 54--the board needs a little life and you could provide it. I replied that I was sick of the arguments. Leon said it was a whole different board and everybody got along. So I'm back and this is fine. I know I bring a different point of view than most people on this board who have hated graded cards from day one but thats the way I collect and I love it. And I agree with Leon who says in effect "its all good".

[Davalillo]

JUeff,

I think you're wrong but you are right about so many things on your radio show I will let this slide.

What I can't let slide is your comment I get special treatment from PSA--as you know they give different rates to all submitters depending on volume and to resubmitters as well. If you are referring to the Evers card that was with SGC not PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Uh, Jim, a couple of years back weren't you leading the charge against altered cards, calling on auction houses to state their policies, demanding that grading companies improve their quality control, stating that you would not buy an expensive card without Kevin Saucier's independent assessment, and so forth? I am sure I can find some of your old posts in that regard. Why the change of mind?

E.g.:

07-23-2007, 08:02 PM
Archive
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,918

If you could improve the hobby, what would you do

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted By: JimCrandell
1)Force the large grading companies to improve their standards.
2)For those caught restoring or trimming cards mandatory jail time.
3)Force the auction houses to disclose whether they have altered a card before it is up for auction.
4)If dealers knowingly sell altered cards, they are banned from the hobby.

[Davalillo]

Peter,

Absolutely and I believe all those things today:

1)Auction houses should state their policies--still firmly believe this.
2)Grading cos should improve their quality control--always room for improvement and I believe that psa and sgc have become more consistent over this period
3)Would not buy expensive card without Kevin Saucier seeing it first--yes--this still applies--there are altered cards in holders just nowhere near as many as some believe.

Also I still believe the four other points you list--don't you?

Thank you for bringing these up.

[calvindog]

Jim, I didn't mean to suggest that you have any inappropriate relationship with a grading company, I just was responding to what I thought was your implication about special treatment due to you being a great customer. As to my claim that there is a flood of high-grade trimmed cards in the market, this is based on first-hand knowledge, not speculation. Of course, when I speculate sometimes I'm even right such as the time i claimed years ago that Mastro Auctions was engaging in massive shill bidding and I was shouted down here by every high and mighty idiot on the board.

And yes, you missed my damn show yesterday--and I even talked sports for a couple segments! Every Saturday now from 10 to noon.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

I would reiterate my opinion that the view that a substantial percentage of pre-war cards graded psa 8 or sgc 88 have been altered is a view that is limited to a few people on this board and buy in large they don't buy high end graded cards. So for the sake of argument who cares what they think when it comes to the market.

This would make a great poll question. My guess would be that far more than a few people on this board think a substantial percentage of pre-war psa 8 and sgc 88's have been altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jim, I think the difference between us is I believe trimming and other alterations are significantly more widespread than you do, particularly at the higher grades in prewar and in low pop commons. I state this based on personal observation of many cards, limited crossover/crackout experience as well as the experience of others which I assume was accurately reported to me, common sense, and conversations with many knowledgeable people that I might be inclined to discredit singly but that corroborate each other as to who the culprits in the hobby are and the extent of what they have done. What is the basis for your belief?

[Davalillo]

Anthony,

Maybe so--I was not following the board for 18 months. I guess a better point would be is that since net54 is generally an anti-PSA message board, that the percentage of high end psa graded cards that are bought from posters here is very few. So from the standpoint of the market it doesn't really matter what people here think as they don't buy the cards anyway.

Jim

[Davalillo]

Peter,

Pretty much same as yours. I probably talk to more major dealers and probably smaller to midsize graded dealers than you do--however I know that for a period of time you were on a private chat board that I am not on and they do have some smart people there. However I do talk to many of them privately.

Jim

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jim, for the most part, do you expect dealers who sell you cards to tell you alteration is a huge problem? Edit to add my opinons are not based on anything I learned from that chatboard.

[Davalillo]

Peter,

Perhaps--but I was just saying I talk to the same sort of people you do but perhaps more dealers--if that makes my universe of contacts less informed than so be it.

Jim

[Davalillo]

Jeff,

Damn!

I will listen in and I will call in for a question. Sounds like I have a better chance of getting through with a politics question than a sportscard question?

You're a smart guy about a lot of things so maybe I'm wrong?? Sometime when you have a few minutes if your busy life permits it we could have a chat.

Barry,

I think my name was used several times in that book so yes I did read it. I think Kevin Saucier walks on water. Am I mistaken that before Kevin was insulted off this board that he said he felt that 5% or maybe 5-10% of vintage high end cards were alterred.....or maybe it was of the total? Exactly--on your other point--it is a nonevent and has had no effect to date on the prices of vintage cards.

Vintagecpa,

You're right its supposed to be a fun hobby and I have gotten tons of enjoyment out of it since I began collecting in 1957 at the age of 4. Its still fun. To me the fun is getting everyu card in a set at at least a psa 8 grade. I also love the players and every cardI look at brings memories.

Jim

[botn]

Jim,

In terms of quantity there very well could be more mid grade altered cards than high grade altered cards because of the volume of mid grade cards in population. However I think the percentage of high grade altered cards is much larger than the percentage of mid grade cards. The payoff is much greater, in most instances, in the high grade market. I feel this is not a problem just at PSA but plagues SGC as much. I turn over a lot of material each year so I get to see more than most.

As I stated earlier, the hobby would change materially if collectors really wanted to know if their cards were messed with but as you point out, and has been my experience too, collectors don't really want to know. And that extends to mid grade collectors as well. See no evil...

Therein lies the problem. None of the grading companies need to be accountable. When they slab a bad card nobody is asking them to make it right. Cards are not fiat money and only have value because the next collector believes the same. If PSA or SGC were to go under I think most in the hobby would approach buying in a different manner. In many instances there is too much faith placed on the flip.

Greg

[Davalillo]

Greg,

I trust you are right on your observations about high grade vs mid grade.

I gree with you on your point that collectors don't want to know. I remember when a coLlector who i know by name but have not met King Yao had
Kevin Saucier look at all his most important cards to tell him which were tampered with and which weren't. I don't think he could understand why I did not want to do the same.
I just don't want to know.

Jim

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

... to tell him which were tampered with and which weren't. I don't think he could understand why I did not want to do the same.
I just don't want to know.

Jim

Jim, if a few of your slabbed cards were found to be tampered with in some way, would PSA pay you "market value" for them? If so, would this encourage you to allow Kevin to look at them?

Rob

[barrysloate]

Hey Jim- sorry I forgot you were mentioned in the book. I read it last year and I guess I just didn't remember.

[bbeck]

In reality, there may be more high end pre-war PSA/SGC collectors on this board then one might think. Some may choose anonymity. Tough to make blanket assumptions regarding pocketbooks and collections. The longer the thread continues, my statement of being a realist seems to hold water, even with Jim Crandell.-Bob Beck

[barrysloate]

Jim- did you get a chance to read the book "Mint Condition" by Dave Jamieson? There's a chapter in there where Jamieson and Kevin Saucier spend a day together. The whole book is good, but if you read only a part of it read that chapter. It's quite interesting.

And you made a point worth merit when you related a conversation with a top collector of 8's and 9's. You said he knows some of his cards are altered, but he doesn't care. That says a lot to me about the phenomenon: some collectors just don't care. If the label reads "9" all is well in the world.

[vintagecpa]

Welcome back to the board Jim, lol. Unfortunately, you collect in a universe few of us lower-budget collectors can even comprehend. I know I've only ever owned a handful of psa 7-8 cards, so it would be difficult for me to have an informed conversation with someone that owns 20,000+. It would be interesting to know how many of these cards have been altered in the past, or even how many of them were produced years later (fro joy plate rumor). Perhaps one day, there will be a need for a professional forensic service if the collecting public demands to know the truth. But at the end of the day, it still is just an expensive hobby where people are simply trying to keep a keep a part of their childhood alive.