1927 Yankees team ball forgery

[Caseyatbat]

have you submitted it to be re-authenticated by PSA or JSA since you have owned it? Or possibly asked James Spence if he would stand behind his previous opinion and give this ball a new letter?

I am not saying I believe it would pass. There are several red flags that have already been pointed out in this thread. I just have never seen anybody give up on such a valuable item so quickly that was already authenticated by a top TPA just because of the opinion of 1 or 2 people.

[David Atkatz]

Don't worry, Casey--I haven't thrown it away. I'll probably show it to Jimmy, but it doesn't matter much to me what he says. As I said before, I saw some obviously forged work by this guy, and there was enough in common with my ball for me to seriously, seriously doubt it, myself. Jodi confirmed for me what I basically already knew, but wasn't willing to accept.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

have you submitted it to be re-authenticated by PSA or JSA since you have owned it? Or possibly asked James Spence if he would stand behind his previous opinion and give this ball a new letter?

I am not saying I believe it would pass. There are several red flags that have already been pointed out in this thread. I just have never seen anybody give up on such a valuable item so quickly that was already authenticated by a top TPA just because of the opinion of 1 or 2 people.

Isn't Spence 1 person?

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Isn't Spence 1 person?

Yes Spence is one person, but his company (of the same name) employs several different authenticators.

[Lordstan]

David,
I am very sorry to hear about this. It was such a magnificent item. Wow.
We all get fooled sometime.

I also give you a lot of credit for posting about it.

I hope you are able to find a way to be compensated, either through the owners of the auction house, even if it isn't in business, or though Spence. They get paid a lot of money. I think they should stand behind it. Just my 2c.

Best,
Mark

[tinkereversandme]

I started collecting autographs a few years ago and have come to this board to be educated and it seems when I ask a question on here or comment about something, it is always met by David in a snarky and sarcastic fashion, so I guess this is kind of vindication that a person who knows all can make a mistake. I also don't understand why it was said that there is no way JSA would pass it now. Why not? It seems like their opinion clashes often on items that others find "highly suspect" all the time and it doesn't stop the bidding it seems. I hope you do go to Jimmy and report what he says.

Regards,

Larry

[RichardSimon]

Halls of Shame was kind enough to send me some pictures of autographs, which I believe were probably done by the person that I have discussed here. A Black Sox team ball and a "To Charlie" ball from the famous con.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by tinkereversandme

I started collecting autographs a few years ago and have come to this board to be educated and it seems when I ask a question on here or comment about something, it is always met by David in a snarky and sarcastic fashion, so I guess this is kind of vindication that a person who knows all can make a mistake. I also don't understand why it was said that there is no way JSA would pass it now. Why not? It seems like their opinion clashes often on items that others find "highly suspect" all the time and it doesn't stop the bidding it seems. I hope you do go to Jimmy and report what he says.

Regards,

Larry

It was stated that no way would PSA pass the ball now. I believe that the authenticators in the hobby have become more aware of a ball like this now.
I too believe PSA would not pass the ball now.

[mr2686]

First off, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass with the following, but am really curious to what other's think. What I'm wondering is this - On this thread I've read that the ball would not pass now because 3rd party authenticators have become aware and have learned from their previous mistake. On past threads over the last few months, 3rd party authenticators have been bashed for making constant stupid mistakes, obviously unable or unwilling to learn. So what do we think:
1. TPA's are pretty good but make mistakes like everyone else?
2. TPA's have become too big and too busy to give each individual item their due?
3. TPA's are becoming Morales types and blanket authenticating?
4. Are TPA's leaning more and more to passing items that they should be
giving "no opinion" to?

Any thoughts?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

Yes Spence is one person, but his company (of the same name) employs several different authenticators.

Not at the time this ball was bought. in 1999. He said it was just spence.

He said Birkholm thought it was no good, and Birkholm worked for JSA. So does JSA think it is good or not? And would it have passed when Birkholm worked there? And would it pass now? Would Spence stick with his original authentication on this ball, or bail on it?

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Not at the time this ball was bought. in 1999. He said it was just spence.

ahhh ok sorry about that, i thought you were talking present time.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

have you submitted it to be re-authenticated by PSA or JSA since you have owned it? Or possibly asked James Spence if he would stand behind his previous opinion and give this ball a new letter?

I am not saying I believe it would pass. There are several red flags that have already been pointed out in this thread. I just have never seen anybody give up on such a valuable item so quickly that was already authenticated by a top TPA just because of the opinion of 1 or 2 people.

I guarantee that ball would not pass PSA today.

As a matter of fact, it wouldn't have passed PSA five years ago.

[novakjr]

Why does it matter if it would pass today, or if it could be snuck by someone? David's being quite honorable with this one. He knows it's not authentic, so trying to get it to pass JSA is not what he's trying to do.. Getting something you know is not authentic to pass, does not make it any more authentic..

David, I admire what you're doing here, and I sincerely hope you're able to manage a way to get some sort of reimbursement.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Why does it matter if it would pass today, or if it could be snuck by someone?

I think the point Chris was making was that the TPAs have since become aware of this forger's work and what once fooled them would no longer do so.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I think the point Chris was making was that the TPAs have since become aware of this forger's work and what once fooled them would no longer do so.

That, too. Thank you, Steve. Those of us who study autographs, learn something new every day. Unfortunately mistakes are made. It's not like some so-called authenticators who give blanket-authentication to EVERYTHING that crosses their desk (that's if they actually examine the autographs).

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I think the point Chris was making was that the TPAs have since become aware of this forger's work and what once fooled them would no longer do so.

That wasn't in reference to Chris. It was in reference to those asking if it would pass today.. It's almost comes off like they're trying to encourage him to sneak it past and then pass it off to someone else..

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Why does it matter if it would pass today, or if it could be snuck by someone? David's being quite honorable with this one. He knows it's not authentic, so trying to get it to pass JSA is not what he's trying to do.. Getting something you know is not authentic to pass, does not make it any more authentic..

David, I admire what you're doing here, and I sincerely hope you're able to manage a way to get some sort of reimbursement.

David, I was replying to a comment from "CaseyAtBat."

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

David, I was replying to a comment from "CaseyAtBat."

so was I. I probably should've quoted him first. Sorry for the confusion.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by novakjr

so was I. I probably should've quoted him first. Sorry for the confusion.

No problem, David.

[Caseyatbat]

Chris, catching up to your comment from yesterday. Yes I share your opinion that the ball would not pass now or five years ago. I was just asking David so I could hear the entire story. If he had re-submitted the ball to be authenticated again since he had owned it because I was interested to see how the story played out. At the time in the thread, the only information we had was that David owns this ball and mentioned it had been approved by Spence in 1999 and now is believed to be a forgery.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

At the time in the thread, the only information we had was that David owns this ball and mentioned it had been approved by Spence in 1999 and now is believed to be a forgery.

That's all the information there is.