Are there any player's autographs that you refuse to collect?

[mr2686]

I was just curious if there were others out there that had some players that they didn't want to have in their collections? It could be that you hated the player as a kid, or you met them and they were a jerk, etc. For me, I just can't seem to want to collect players that committed suicide. Eric Show, Donnie Moore and Don Wilson autos for some reason just give me the creeps.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by mr2686

I was just curious if there were others out there that had some players that they didn't want to have in their collections? It could be that you hated the player as a kid, or you met them and they were a jerk, etc. For me, I just can't seem to want to collect players that committed suicide. Eric Show, Donnie Moore and Don Wilson autos for some reason just give me the creeps.

Mike,
I'm not sure that Don Wilson actually committed suicide. I don't believe that that was the consensus after he died tragically. Google the details of his early demise. I believe that investigation indicated that his death was accidental.

He died of accidental carbon monoxide poisoning while sitting in his car smoking in his garage. It was speculated that he returned home at 1:00 AM the night that he died. Did a night of drinking impair his judgement, leading to his death? I don't know if there is a conclusive answer. His death, as well as his son's, was horrible no matter what...

He was on top of his game and was, by all reports, excited about the upcoming baseball season.

[Mr. Zipper]

As a general autograph collector, I have no interest in having the signatures of serial killers, terrorists, etc. Bad karma.

I can't think of too many athletes that fall into this category, but I'd avoid adding OJ to my collection.

[phikappapsi]

I only refuse to collect people that are only "famous" due to a blunder...

Example:

Buckner
Or
Scott norwood

If the player is only remembered for a blunder, or because they gave up the game winning or historic HR etc etc then I don't see th point.

Why celebrat mediocrity mixed with failure?

[RichardSimon]

OJ and I won't sell him either.
Had two, tore them up and threw them away.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

I only refuse to collect people that are only "famous" due to a blunder...

Example:

Buckner
Or
Scott norwood

If the player is only remembered for a blunder, or because they gave up the game winning or historic HR etc etc then I don't see th point.

Why celebrat mediocrity mixed with failure?

I respect your collecting choices, but Buckner was definitely not mediocre. He was a very good player, and I think he's collectible despite his error.

I have auto's of Bonds, AROD, McGwire, and Raffy that I had for years and have painted baseballs of, so I keep those, but since then I have no interest in adding Manny, Braun, or David Ortiz since they blew it.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[39special]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

OJ and I won't sell him either.
Had two, tore them up and threw them away.

Good job Richard!!!!

[phikappapsi]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I respect your collecting choices, but Buckner was definitely not mediocre. He was a very good player, and I think he's collectible despite his error.

I have auto's of Bonds, AROD, McGwire, and Raffy that I had for years and have painted baseballs of, so I keep those, but since then I have no interest in adding Manny, Braun, or David Ortiz since they blew it.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

Understood, he was a "good" or at minimum above average player, that said, without the error nobody would care about him, his name would linger in mild 1980s obscurity... That play is the only reason anyone other than maybe some diehard red sox fans would really see him as collection worthy.

[johnmh71]

I have no interest in anyone that has been linked to steroids. And I definately don't want an OJ autograph.

[Orioles1954]

Eric Show committed suicide?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Eric Show committed suicide?

Eric Show died of drug overdose (abuse). He had taken a speedball (cocaine and heroin) and had a massive heart attack, FWIW.

[mr2686]

Several people have brought up OJ, and I agree completely. I had two of his autographs from the early 80's and ended up giving them both to a friend because I didn't want them in my collection.
As for players that are known for a famous blunder or only known for one famous event, I look at it like this; I'm not collecting the player because of the blunder, I'm collecting the event because it's a part of baseball history. Whether it's Branca giving up the homerun to Thompson, or Buckner and the groundball, or Torrez giving up the homerun to Dent, or Gionfriddo taking away a homerun from Dimaggio, etc etc, it's all part of baseball history...and for the most part, all of these things are in just about every baseball documentary so I feel it's worthy of collecting.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Eric Show died of drug overdose (abuse). He had taken a speedball (cocaine and heroin) and had a massive heart attack, FWIW.

That's true, but it was mostly believed he took an overdose on purpose. Again, much like the Don Wilson saga, we'll probably never know for sure. He was troubled and was a bit of a flake but anything could have happened.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by mr2686

or players that are known for a famous blunder or only known for one famous event, I look at it like this; I'm not collecting the player because of the blunder, I'm collecting the event because it's a part of baseball history. Whether it's Branca giving up the homerun to Thompson, or Buckner and the groundball, or Torrez giving up the homerun to Dent, or Gionfriddo taking away a homerun from Dimaggio, etc etc, it's all part of baseball history...and for the most part, all of these things are in just about every baseball documentary so I feel it's worthy of collecting.

I agree. You could add mickey Owen and Tommy Heinrich dual signed pics to the list. I love "famous moment " SPs with multiple participants.

[Bilko G]

Wouldn't want autographs of OJ Simpson, Chris Benoit, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden (Don't actually know if his autos exist on the market), Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Fidel Castro.

[tjlives]

I have a Wilson/Buckner signed picture, but then again, I'm a Mets fan...

[scmavl]

I used to say that I would never collect Cobb, due to his racist views and general a-holeness. However, after much more reading and learning about him, I must say I admire his drive and ability. I wouldn't say no to a Cobb check.

[phikappapsi]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I agree. You could add mickey Owen and Tommy Heinrich dual signed pics to the list. I love "famous moment " SPs with multiple participants.

Again, I understand the historical perspective, I just feel like sports have enough positive history to collect parts of that I don't personally get satisfaction from owning the "blunders"

Just my own perspective, I completely understand those that do

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Several people have brought up OJ, and I agree completely. I had two of his autographs from the early 80's and ended up giving them both to a friend because I didn't want them in my collection.
As for players that are known for a famous blunder or only known for one famous event, I look at it like this; I'm not collecting the player because of the blunder, I'm collecting the event because it's a part of baseball history. Whether it's Branca giving up the homerun to Thompson, or Buckner and the groundball, or Torrez giving up the homerun to Dent, or Gionfriddo taking away a homerun from Dimaggio, etc etc, it's all part of baseball history...and for the most part, all of these things are in just about every baseball documentary so I feel it's worthy of collecting.

About 25 years ago, I bought and sold a photo of the Thompson homer (with a dotted line tracking the flight) signed by both Thompson and Branca. Bobby had insrcibed it "Hope you enjoyed this as much as I did!" and Branca wrote "Eh".

Kinda sorry I sold it now that I'm a little older and appreciate the history more than the few dollars profit.

[drc]

I'm not fond of nightmares, so wouldn't want any serial killer personal artifacts in my home. Thought the famed Jack the Ripper 'From Hell' letter would be fascinating item to own. I didn't say I'd buy it.

Trivia question of the day: Sent to the home of the head of a volunteer anti-crime group, what was included with the From Hell letter?

Answer: A woman's kidney.

[David Atkatz]

Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Jose Canseco, Alex Rodriguez, Rafael Palmeiro, Roger Clemens, Jason Giambi, Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz,...

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by scmavl

I used to say that I would never collect Cobb, due to his racist views and general a-holeness. However, after much more reading and learning about him, I must say I admire his drive and ability. I wouldn't say no to a Cobb check.

I agree. I'm actually waiting to find one of his checks that was signed on my birthday. So far, no luck, but I continue to look...

[J.McMurry]

Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Jose Canseco, Alex Rodriguez, Rafael Palmeiro, Roger Clemens, Jason Giambi, Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz,...

That pretty much sums it up for me too,although I do have a Bonds baseball from several years back.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by J.McMurry

That pretty much sums it up for me too,although I do have a Bonds baseball from several years back.

Me too. I have a Barry Bonds SS signed ball that I got in person in about 1990 (at Dodger Stadium). For this reason I won't get rid of it. I definitely wouldn't chase his autograph today.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

I agree. I'm actually waiting to find one of his checks that was signed on my birthday. So far, no luck, but I continue to look...

Scott, that would be cool. I found one at the very first "big" show I went to in the late 80's in the very first row of the show. Since it would have taken almost all the money I had brought with me, I decided to check out the rest of the show first. 50 rows later, I came back to find it was sold. 20 some odd years later, I'm still kicking myself.

[Mr. Zipper]

I certainly understand not wanting to collect players tainted by the steroids scandal.

But, to play Devil's advocate, would you feel the same way about collecting signatures related to the 1919 Black Sox scandal?

[drc]

Cobb is one of my favorite players, but because he was so dynamic and interesting, not because I we share the same views. Alter boys don't interest me as historical figures.

Joan of Arc is one of my favorite historical figures, not because I'm Catholic (which I'm not), but because she was such a complex, ambiguous and fascinating figure. She can be seen in many different ways.

The 20th century Austrian-American Princeton mathematician and logician Kurt Godel during his lifetime and today was regarded as one of the mental giants on the order of Einstein and Isaac Newton. Yet he was also mentally ill and did the most illogical, strange things. He was certain people were trying to poison him, he wore heavy fur coats on the hottest days of summer and kept open all the windows and doors of his house in winter. He also said he had mathematical proof of the existence of God, said the US Constitution could legally allow a dictator to come to power and didn't trust human logic. Easily one of the strangest, complex, contradictory, deep, enigmatic minds ever-- and, due to his published academic papers, no one questions that he was a genius.

Certain complex historical figures like those attract my interest more than Dick Clark and Pat Boone.

And, off the top of my head, the one autograph I'd most like to own? Anne Frank. She's one of my favorite ever people, and her diary is perhaps my favorite non-fiction book. I first read it as an adult and the whole thing fascinated me, she was such a talented writer, a wise thinker and a charming and lively personality. And, keeping in line with my post, she wasn't a two dimensional, goody two shoes-- she was a real person, a perfectly normal, funny and wise cracking, back talking to her elders, smart ass, hot headed, hold a petty grudge, thinks her neighbors are idiots, refuses to eat the vegetables (literally-- there's a passage about it), head strong, inappropriate jokes, thinks about boys half the time teenage girl.

If instead of the diary, an adult wrote her biography it would have sucked (and blowed), because they would have made her a two-dimensional instructional 'heroic' figure instead of the human being she was.

And, one of the more interesting tidbits I learned from her book: The Franks celebrated Christmas and exchanged Christmas presents. No doubt a cultural thing from having lived in Germany for many years. And, in keeping with the topic of this forum, a 1937 Anne Frank signed Christmas card exists. Someone discovered it just a few years back in a Dutch antique store.

[J.McMurry]

I agree on Anne Frank. I actually toured her home in Amsterdam back in '89 and secretly snapped a pic of the hidden door(pictures were not allowed), if I can find it I'll scan and post.

[ss]

I bought a Barry Bonds ball for my sons at a charity auction once. When I got home with it, my little twins sons said "he's a steroid bum and we don't want him." So I sent it back to the charity the next day and told them to keep the money.

[toyman55]

Maybe age (I am 63) and the fact that I have loved baseball since 1955 has given me tolerance. I still have great memories of Pete Rose playing harder than anyone to set a hit record and win games. He belongs in the HOF and I do have his autograph. As far as the steroid era I remember the excitement that McGuire and Sosa gave not to me from only watching them on their quest but through the voices of the broadcasters who loved them and now refuse to acknowledge they knew along with everyone else that these guys were juicing. I find it repulsive that my tax dollars are being used to prosecute and persecute, Bonds, CLemens and all the other great players we brought our kids to see.
Wake up, we are fans not judges. Mantle was an alcoholic as attest to his early death, Cobb was mean to a core, Ruth had no guidelines and I love Baseball for all it's good and all it's bad.
I do have autographs of Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, Clemens and more and I cherish them as much as any of the over 150 autographs I have.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by toyman55

Maybe age (I am 63) and the fact that I have loved baseball since 1955 has given me tolerance. I still have great memories of Pete Rose playing harder than anyone to set a hit record and win games. He belongs in the HOF and I do have his autograph. As far as the steroid era I remember the excitement that McGuire and Sosa gave not to me from only watching them on their quest but through the voices of the broadcasters who loved them and now refuse to acknowledge they knew along with everyone else that these guys were juicing. I find it repulsive that my tax dollars are being used to prosecute and persecute, Bonds, CLemens and all the other great players we brought our kids to see.
Wake up, we are fans not judges. Mantle was an alcoholic as attest to his early death, Cobb was mean to a core, Ruth had no guidelines and I love Baseball for all it's good and all it's bad.
I do have autographs of Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, Clemens and more and I cherish them as much as any of the over 150 autographs I have.

I totally agree. I am no moralist, and I love the history of baseball AS IT HAPPENED, played by imperfect human beings.

[J.McMurry]

I respect your opinion and agree on some points,but please dont compare todays players to HoFer's personal flaws from 40-80 years ago. No matter how mean they were, or how much they drank, their performance on the field was NATURAL ABILITY and the numbers in the record books are legit. The players of today? who knows what numbers are real or enhanced by PED's. Baseball to me is that Joe Dimaggio looking kid next door who is a natural ball player, not the muscle bound roid head that gives us the equivilent of beer league softball. jmo

[phikappapsi]

I'm not a collector of steroid era stuff, but to be fair, Barry Bonds was one of the best ever even before the roids. Sure they extended his career, and inflated his late career power numbers, but that guy was at another level even before his head grew

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by J.McMurry

I respect your opinion and agree on some points,but please dont compare todays players to HoFer's personal flaws from 40-80 years ago. No matter how mean they were, or how much they drank, their performance on the field was NATURAL ABILITY and the numbers in the record books are legit. The players of today? who knows what numbers are real or enhanced by PED's. Baseball to me is that Joe Dimaggio looking kid next door who is a natural ball player, not the muscle bound roid head that gives us the equivilent of beer league softball. jmo

+1

[drc]

In his defense, steroids didn't make Bonds more of a jerk.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by J.McMurry

I respect your opinion and agree on some points,but please dont compare todays players to HoFer's personal flaws from 40-80 years ago. No matter how mean they were, or how much they drank, their performance on the field was NATURAL ABILITY and the numbers in the record books are legit. The players of today? who knows what numbers are real or enhanced by PED's. Baseball to me is that Joe Dimaggio looking kid next door who is a natural ball player, not the muscle bound roid head that gives us the equivilent of beer league softball. jmo

If you think none of those guys would have taken steroids, were they as readily available and widely used as they were in the 90's, then I will respectfully say that you are kidding yourself.

You can look at steroids merely as cheating, or you can look at it from the angle of players doing whatever it takes to be the best. Either way, if they had been available in the 30s, you can bet that hundreds of MLBers would have taken them in that era and every era since.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by drc

In his defense, steroids didn't make Bonds more of a jerk.

Like

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

You can look at steroids merely as cheating, or you can look at it from the angle of players doing whatever it takes to be the best. Either way, if they had been available in the 30s, you can bet that hundreds of MLBers would have taken them in that era and every era since.

Maybe. But the fact is they didn't. Thus, their records are real.

Unlike those of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, etc., etc.

[drc]

There aren't players I would refuse to collect, but there are I'd chose not to buy.

In my mind, all players' autographs are worth owning in my mind, but there are players I have distaste for.

I don't like Bonds, but if his autographed baseball was offered at a really good price I'd take it.

With political autographs, I don't collect only politicians who's beliefs I agree with. I've had both Michael Dukakis and Alexander Haig.

Though I have to admit I'm not in the market for Rafael Pameiro or Adolph Hitler autographs. Not equating the two morally or politically, just two autographers I'm not fond of. If someone has Hitler's autograph as a historical figure, I understand. As someone here said, history is made up of good and bad and if you collect history you're going to have some bad.

Dick Clark, I don't want his autograph either. Never a fan. And, no, I'm not equating him with Hitler.

[toyman55]

Three cheers for your comment. The proof of whether they would take steroids is only enforced by the pitchers who cheated with spitballs, batters who corked their bats and base runners who would slide into a base not just to be safe but to put a player out of the game. Maybe if Don Drysdale had taken steroids he wouldn't have thrown at the heads of so many players to get an advantage.

I also respect those who disagree, that is what makes baseball the greatest sport of all. The different personalities, the wide variety of reporters and all the fans make this game great. The players are idols and even when they fall (Tiger Woods, Steve Howe, Strawberry, Gooden, etc>>) we still want to meet them, shake their hand and get their autograph while telling them how we were a at a game and witnessed their greatness.

Fact is I still turn into a little kid when I meet any baseball player. Oh by the way I would have done steroids to if it meant saving the game and bringing fans back to the parks.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

Understood, he was a "good" or at minimum above average player, that said, without the error nobody would care about him, his name would linger in mild 1980s obscurity... That play is the only reason anyone other than maybe some diehard red sox fans would really see him as collection worthy.

Buckner had over 2700 career hits with bad ankles and knees. Another healthy season and change and he's in the Hall of Fame regardless of 1986.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Steroids don't help improve your optical focal vision, you still got to see the ball and hit the ball. It isn't going to improve your hand-eye coordination, and it certainly doesn't help improve your quick twitch muscle types. And if you were to look at home run charts abotu close home runs and no doubters, there isn't too big of a difference.


Bonds is the best ever, plain and simple, who cares about steroids. Was going to be best ever even before he started juicing. He was a player who did it all. Stole, hit for power, hit for average, strong arm, amazing fielder. There is no one better IMO.

A lot of the players who used steroids didn't necessarily use them to be the best, or break records. They used them as a means to recover quicker from surgeries or injuries to get back onto the field and get there paycheck

[rjackson44]

byce harper ooops sorry guys

[drc]

If steroids do players like Bonds no good, then why do the take them? Why do they still take them today? And if the players believe there is nothing wrong or cheating about steroids, then why do they always deny taking them, even back when they weren't banned? Roger Clemens apparently would prefer to go to prison than admit to any one he took PEDS. Bonds apparently would prefer to be convicted of a felony than admit he knowingly took PEDS. These acts show two baseball player who feel taking PEDS is cheating and feel it would damage their reputation and taint their numbers if people knew they took them. Hard to argue otherwise.

And, yes, I think Bonds was a great player before he took steroids, a Joe DiMaggio or Willie Mays type, and was the best player on steroids after.

[J.McMurry]

Yep, no doubt Bonds was a HOF'er before the steroids, my question is, if he hadnt turned to steroids when he got older,would he have gotten to the 600 HR plateau?

If roids didnt give the players an advantage, they wouldnt be taking them.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I never said steroids do no good. I was just stating that they aren't going to improve those I stated. Obviously they will make you bigger, stronger, not faster necessarily, and help recover from injuries/surgeries, but they aren't going to help those factors I mentioned above.

Bonds took them because he was jealous of McGwire and Sosa and wanted to chase records, smaller name players took them following injuries so they can get the paycheck to afford life after baseball and to compete, others did so to be the best and to get the richest of paychecks.

But if you looked at the list of players who were caught taking steroids, a lot of them had marginal improvement because they lacked having been born with the perfect genes like Bonds for example. Bonds' eyes were so good, he could pick-up the seems on the pitchers release point and know what type of pitch was coming. And based off of where his arm would be angled, he knew whether that pitch would be in his zone or not. He never struck out, and had a pretty good average. Obviously top tier players were blessed with those abilities.

[mr2686]

There's a lot of us out here that have good hand eye coordination, and played one form of ball or another for several years, but that doesn't mean we were good enough to catch up to a 92 mph fastball while also being able to react to a curve. Due to the fact that a steroid user can work out longer, harder and more often with less muscle recovery time, bat speed is increased allowing the batter that extra fraction of a second to wait and identify a pitch. I'd say that's helping the batter be better.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by mr2686

There's a lot of us out here that have good hand eye coordination, and played one form of ball or another for several years, but that doesn't mean we were good enough to catch up to a 92 mph fastball while also being able to react to a curve. Due to the fact that a steroid user can work out longer, harder and more often with less muscle recovery time, bat speed is increased allowing the batter that extra fraction of a second to wait and identify a pitch. I'd say that's helping the batter be better.

There is a huge difference between good hand eye coordination, and unbelievable hand eye coordination. Just cause you can swing the bat harder doesn't mean it's going to help you hit the ball by any means. You still have to be able to do everything else before you swing.

But I do agree to avoid an argument, it will enhance what you can enhance if used properly. Being bigger, stronger doesn't necessarily always translates well on a diamond compared to other sports. Baseball is about flexibility and range of motion. Get too large in upper body, can't really throw the ball well or swing the bat with as much fluidity.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

But we are getting a lot off topic, sorry my bad :P.

I do not avoid people, each player is a piece of history. Those who avoid OJ in my opinion is understandable. Why don't you avoid Cobb for that matter, he killed someone...Those of you who don't collect OJ, do you collect Ray Lewis? Killed someone. Donte Stallworth? Hit and run. Just curious, if you can collect Cobb, you can collect anyone else. And for those stating proof on Cobb, there were previous postings a while back on here you can use as reference.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Being bigger, stronger doesn't necessarily always translates well on a diamond compared to other sports. Baseball is about flexibility and range of motion. Get too large in upper body, can't really throw the ball well or swing the bat with as much fluidity.

I'll agree with that...just look at Ruben Sierra. He got as big as a house and had to start his bat swing in a different zip code.