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#801
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Nice |
#802
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__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain |
#803
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Quote:
What a f----d up hobby this has become. |
#804
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I would assume the submitter is not Mosher, as to the type of middleman, who knows
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#805
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It appears the auction was taken down. Once again, the guys at BODA are total rockstars and heroes of the hobby. I am glad for them bc clearly PSA is wholly inept.
Go BODA! Thanks for all your hard work. Side note/thought - what if everyone kicked in $50 or $100 each year and we, as a hobby, hired BODA, and some guys trained by BODA, to just troll auctions and listings and out cards that appear to be altered. In other-words, the hobby voluntarily funds a watchdog TPG for the benefit of the hobby. Obviously it needs thought and there are many operational issues, not the least of which is funding, but I, for one, would contribute to that cause. |
#806
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How about all pitch in for a large table/both at EVERY MAJOR CARD SHOW ACROSS THE COUNTY TO SET UP WITH A LARGE SCREEN COMPUTER/TV ILLUSTRATING EVERY ALTERED SLABED CARD DISCOVERED BY THE BODA. IN THE FRONT OF THE ROOM ENTRANCE OR BETTER YET RIGHT NEXT TO THE LARGEST TPG IN THE INDUSTY. RUN IT CONSTANTLY THROUGH OUT THE WHOLE HOURS OF THE SHOW
Last edited by Johnny630; 11-06-2019 at 03:10 PM. |
#807
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Good point. That's easy to do.
__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain |
#808
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#809
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-06-2019 at 03:58 PM. |
#810
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I’m all for the above.
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#811
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Quote:
I think this would have to start with emails between the owners and moderators of these Internet venues, as well as longtime collectors reaching out to others they know in the hobby who would be interested in supporting the cause. Last edited by JunkyJoe; 11-06-2019 at 04:30 PM. |
#812
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Quote:
can even be researched before shipping the card to the buyer....especially for cards that sell for a certain number such as 5k + Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 11-06-2019 at 05:13 PM. |
#813
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It’s become readily apparent that none of the leading hobby businesses care a lick about the consumer, who happens to be their life-blood. Only dollars, market share and profits resonate with them. So unfortunately it is us collectors who have to look out for one another.
I don’t know what a booth at the National costs. But if someone at BODA can get it off the ground, I’ll contribute $100 towards the continuous loop video showing the thousands of examples of altered cards in PSA Slabs. Given PSA’s money, power and status within the Industry, I’m sure they’d find a way to squelch it very quickly (similar to how they censor/delete valid concerns in their own Forum). Even though we’re all well versed on the problems and corruption, I would estimate that 98% of submitting collectors remain unaware. This could help to spread the word far better than anything that’s been done to date. It would have bigger impact in Chicago than AC, so there’s about a year and a half to get it going, should someone at BODA want to take it on. Last edited by perezfan; 11-06-2019 at 05:14 PM. |
#814
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Quote:
Last edited by Johnny630; 11-06-2019 at 05:18 PM. |
#815
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https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=235
Lajoie Horrendous This would be a perfect example, amongst thousands of other disgraced graded cards to show on Display at every card show next to their booth....... This is the opinion you’re paying for....think twice Last edited by Johnny630; 11-08-2019 at 11:59 AM. |
#816
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Ugh. Hopefully one of our centering mavens didn't buy it, or if they did they will see the post and return the thing.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#817
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Why would a centering maven buy that? It's not centered.
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#818
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Yeah I guess not. Brent did sticker it and describe it as having outstanding centering though.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#819
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Quote:
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#820
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Quote:
__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain |
#821
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Quote:
To (kind of) quote Steely Dan... But they wouldn't know a trimmed card if they held it in their hand The things they think are precious, I can't understand. |
#822
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#823
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Haha....
You one-upped me! |
#824
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Quote:
PSA had every incentive to grade that $5,000 Gehrig with a number, and charge the corresponding grading fee. They saw something significant enough wrong with the card that they passed up that grading fee. |
#825
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#826
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Quote:
I've never had an asset graded by any TPG so I'm just asking because I don't know how it works. I assumed the grading fee correlated to the actual value of the asset. |
#827
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Sadly everything to me is baked in........except it or move on seems to be the theme of the industry/hobby............I’m totally in a seemingly endlessly melancholy state in terms of the hobby.
It’s sad...... |
#828
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Usually yes, but if you submit at a high price level and the card is found to be counterfeit, PSA doesn't refund you anything. If the card was submitted at a cheap level and then garners a grade making it worth a lot, they will contact the submitter and charge more for the submission after the fact.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#829
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Quote:
So, regarding the other concurrent thread, a buyer pays over $5k for a card graded 7, he then presumably pays the PSA fee to confirm authenticity/altered status/regrade, discovers it has been doctored, and returns the card (without the deceptive - worse than worthless - GAI holder.) It seems to me that the buyer really came out on the short end, losing those PSA fees. And the seller receives his card back, along with info PSA determined, without having to pay PSA for it. Ordinarily I would say the seller received a free review of his card and should appreciate that, but of course I understand, since the news from PSA was bad, it was news the seller did not want to hear. And since the card is now out of the GAI holder, its doctored status can no longer be hidden. Last edited by Mark17; 11-09-2019 at 05:27 AM. |
#830
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Quote:
The buyer is trying to have it both ways here. They bought a card, and cracked it out to send to PSA raw. This should invalidate the return process since the card is no longer in the condition it was sold in; that's the risk that comes from cracking a card out. PSA's determination of minsize or alteration is their opinion, effectively. The seller should have never clicked on the button to accept the refund request. Now the owner of the cracked out card cannot return it down the line, and is stuck with a loss through no fault of their own (presuming they purchased it in good faith).
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#831
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Quote:
The only question really is, who takes the hit? The guy who was cheated originally (the seller) or the guy who paid his own money to PSA to uncover the fraud (the buyer.) |
#832
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It's like ripping the tag off a mattress or slicing the factory warranty sticker on a computer tower. Once you've cracked the card from the case, you've invalidated the warranty. That's the risk with taking the card out of the holder in the first place. If the card graded a VG-EX 4 by PSA instead of Altered, could the buyer return it to the seller at that point?
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#833
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Quote:
The card was altered. That does not have anything to do with a bunch of experts opining whether the card is a 4, or 5, or 6.... At some point someone doctored the card, and presumably GAI didn't discover the deception. All these years later, the deception was uncovered. Outing doctored cards is a good thing, a public service to the hobby. At least it used to be........ now I wonder... |
#834
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Quote:
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#835
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The most expensive card I own is my T202 Birmingham's Home Run in PSA 5. I paid about $240 for it years ago, remembering Lew Lipset had written that it was the scarcest card in the set. I should've bought a Cobb instead.
So......... no. |
#836
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Ok, so you're a straw man guy. Got it.
I didn't realize there was any proof the card originally in the GAI holder was altered. PSA declared it was after the card was removed from the holder. There is no understanding of whether or not the card was altered after being cracked out, by the buyer. It may have been fine in the GAI holder, just overgraded. Again, the precedent this sets is that any card can be removed from the holder and returned for a refund. Which would lead to even more fraud. I am all for rooting out fraud in the space, this just doesn't seem like the same thing. Your arguments are being read as white-knighting for the buyer, who know they did something wrong and are trying to pass the buck back to the unsuspecting seller.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#837
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Quote:
Ebay has said that they treat GAI differently than the current, recognized TPG: Beckett, PSA, SGC. So your precedent of people cracking, resubmitting, and returning wouldn't work on ebay regarding those slabs in the first place. And I don't think it should've worked had alterations not been discovered in this case. This is NOT a matter of a guy buying a card, trying to get a better grade, seeing he can't, then returning the card out of its slab. Everybody in the world knows that would be wrong. This is about discovering and exposing a deception that seriously impacts the value of the actual card. You didn't respond to my answer to your computer scenario. I am curious what your thoughts are, so I'll repeat my question to you: What if I buy a computer system described as new, slice the factory warranty sticker on the tower and discover they sold me a system frankensteined together with a bunch of used parts? Is the fact I needed to slice the sticker to inspect it enough for them to put the blame on ME, while conveniently overlooking the real fraud? |
#838
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I actually wrote a response to the computer scenario, but as you seem to just be arguing to argue, I didn't intend to continue the conversation.
If the computer was working properly, and you were sold a lemon but didn't know it, is there really an issue that required the slicing of the seal? If the computer was malfunctioning, and you knew that by slicing the seal you were voiding the warranty, wouldn't you return the computer, with seal intact, whether the parts were fake or they were real and just broken? You are adding a lot of hypotheticals to this issue where they don't really apply, so you are using "straw man" logic.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#839
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It doesn't matter why someone breaks the seal on the computer. What matters is that when he does and fraud is revealed, it is the fraud that meatters Not the seal. Not the GAI holder.
I am arguing to argue, while you are on some higher ground? Whatever. In your world, if a guy flattens out corners of a card, then neatly trims them sharp, in such a way that the only way the alteration can be detected would be to inspect the edges and measure the thickness, then all he has to do is get it slabbed and he's home free! 1. If the card remains slabbed, nobody ever knows. 2. If the card is cracked and the alteration discovered, no recourse for the buyer because he cracked it out. You said I was white-knighting for the buyer. Now I will ask you, are you white-knighting for card doctors? |
#840
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Ok man, have a good time. I think I've proven I'm not a fan of the card doctors. What we haven't proven is that your wronged buyer isn't the card doctor himself.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#841
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Early Global Authentication was just as good as any other TPG. They devolved later on, but depending on when this card was graded by GAI, it could've been perfectly legit in that slab. Lots of assumptions being made here, and lots of NON apples-to-apples scenarios being thrown around.
Perhaps this particular thread should revert back to its original subject matter of outed altered cards, and we debate the cracked out card solely within the other thread. |
#842
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Don’t we have another thread going for this GAI returned item scenario?
__________________
Successful transactions on Net54 with balltrash, greenmonster66; Peter_Spaeth; robw1959; Stetson_1883; boxcar18; Blackie |
#843
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Exactly… Hopefully the discussion of the cracked GAI Card can remain solely in that thread.
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#844
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Quote:
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#845
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I've pondered if collectors (for those who do) accept altered cards that are mislabeled, how can they turn around and argue they should that they should be refunded for a card that is misidentified (fake labeled as authentic)?
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#846
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I think everything is baked in now.....all the information is readily available for everyone. I see nothing changing we will see the same mantra.....be careful whom you buy from, buy from trusted reputable guys only...buy the card not the holder ect.....many people could care less if their card/cards are altered as long as they're in that almighty NB Slab all is cool to them.
Idk...It's very weird logic doesn't define reality ........above is my reality of this situation Last edited by Johnny630; 11-11-2019 at 11:38 AM. |
#847
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58 White Letter Goes From a 8.5 to a 10 please check out.
BODA Corndog https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=237 |
#848
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Quote:
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#849
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I am sorry to correct you. They paid for a flip saying PSA 10.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#850
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i stand corrected...and I stand by calling this behavior "idiotic!"
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