Greatest Living Player...

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Discussions of great fielding are rarely focused on stats.

True. Fielding is definitely harder to quantify than hitting or pitching, especially for older players when all of the things being measured today that go into calculating dWAR aren't available.

[Leon]

This thread was moved to the front page to get some more resopnses and continue the discussion. And the other was locked. Carry on....

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Nolan for me, all the way. (Just glad the title wasn't "Greatest Living All-Around Player". That would require much more consideration.)

Can this thread be edited to include a poll? That would be great!

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Nolan for me, all the way. (Just glad the title wasn't "Greatest Living All-Around Player". That would require much more consideration.)

Can this thread be edited to include a poll? That would be great!

I created a poll earlier today in a separate thread that's still in the Watercooler section. Leon, can you please move that as well to the main page?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

For all the Koufax adherents, I get the love, devotion and passion. He obviously dominated his all-too-brief era. I just require a little longevity. This doesn't make me wrong or right; just my personal rule for answering such a question.

Heck, for hockey, my favourite was Mike Bossy, whose career so uncannily reminds of Koufax'. They both would have been the undisputed kings if not for injury. Each of their numbers are beyond staggering. Bossy would have easily out-Gretzkyed Gretzky if given a longer career. Likely in less time that it took Wayne to put up his numbers! 573 goals in 10 seasons?! Are you kidding me?!

[Touch'EmAll]

Greatest living player. A lot of the stat guys won't give the nod to Ryan over other candidates. So I will tweek the question into Greatest living Legend - Nolan Ryan. Football, without thinking too much I gotta go with Joe Montana. Basketball, Jordan.

[71buc]

I love Griffey and Rickey. Call me crazy but when it’s all said and done they are all just keeping the title warm Ohtani.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Since he was initially a pitcher, it wouldn't surprise me if he had a good throwing arm in the outfield. However, I don't remember him ever being talked about as a great fielder. Maybe it's just because of all the focus on his hitting and because the fielding stats aren't as plentiful from that time.

On the "Glory of Their Times" audio set, Rube Bressler says "Ruth played the outfield like an animal. They know when it's going to rain...I don't. He never threw to the wrong base. He played by instinct. He was like an animal out there."

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

On the "Glory of Their Times" audio set, Rube Bressler says "Ruth played the outfield like an animal. They know when it's going to rain...I don't. He never threw to the wrong base. He played by instinct. He was like an animal out there."

My dad, born in 1918, thought Ruth was the greatest baseball player ever... great pitcher, outfielder, hitter, you name it. Most people forget he pitched and won several complete games when he was with the Yankees. I look up to and respect my dad more than any other man I have known in this life. If he thought Babe Ruth was the greatest, that's more than good enough for me.

[Mike D.]

Just the fact that this thread has had about 20 names, pretty much all with compelling arguments for the title....yet just about nobody would have argued the answer was Mays a week ago is a real testament to just how great great Mays was.

[Mozzie22]

Pujols, Henderson, Maddux, Bench are all good choices. Bonds can suck it!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Amphetamines are chemically synthesized, controlled substances that can be used to treat conditions such as narcolepsy and ADHD because they increase alertness and sharpen reflexes. They also increase strength, muscular power, and endurance.

[JollyElm]

Is there a way to automatically add every member who pathetically votes for that cheating, statistic-ruining (add your own personal synonym for "scumbag" here) Barry Bonds to your ignore list??
Asking for a friend.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Is there a way to automatically add every member who pathetically votes for that cheating, statistic-ruining (add your own personal synonym for "scumbag" here) Barry Bonds to your ignore list??
Asking for a friend.

In reality Mr Bonds probably cheated way less than many on this list.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Is there a way to automatically add every member who pathetically votes for that cheating, statistic-ruining (add your own personal synonym for "scumbag" here) Barry Bonds to your ignore list??
Asking for a friend.

It won’t take you long to do it manually.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mozzie22

Pujols, Henderson, Maddux, Bench are all good choices. Bonds can suck it!

This is the kind of reasoned, logical argument I was hoping for. I’d like to change my vote now after this compelling analysis.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is the kind of reasoned, logical argument I was hoping for. I’d like to change my vote now after this compelling analysis.

Bonds was/is an asshole and a narcissist of the highest order, I know for stat guys that makes no difference, but to some folks character is included in "greatest".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Bonds was/is an asshole and a narcissist of the highest order, I know for stat guys that makes no difference, but to some folks character is included in "greatest".

The assessment of his character has undergone some revisionism in recent years for the better, but the common conception that he was not such a great guy never seemed to hurt Cobb.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The assessment of his character has undergone some revisionism in recent years for the better, but the common conception that he was not such a great guy never seemed to hurt Cobb.

Cobb was portrayed as a vehement racist thanks to Al Stump and carried all the way through Ken Burns lazy portrayal of him in his otherwise fantastic documentary. Many people including some members here refused to collect Cobb because of that disinformation. Did it hurt him? No, he's been dead a long time but I'm sure if there was a Cobb statue somewhere the BLM gangsters would want to tear it down.

Bonds otoh is a current asshole and his narcissistic behavior has been well documented. It's not a winnable argument, stat guys aren't going to care about character and character guys aren't going to care about stats.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Bonds was/is an asshole and a narcissist of the highest order, I know for stat guys that makes no difference, but to some folks character is included in "greatest".

There is a pretty big difference between trying to use a character clause and "suck it".

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Bonds was/is an asshole and a narcissist of the highest order, I know for stat guys that makes no difference, but to some folks character is included in "greatest".

The list of negative stories about the personality of Willie Mays is also quite long.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Tabe

The list of negative stories about the personality of Willie Mays is also quite long.

Weren't those mainly when he was older and not from his playing days (unlike Bonds)?

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

Actually, I'm good with all three!

Wasn't Clemens acquitted of using PEDs in a court of law? So he is under suspicion mostly in the court of public opinion despite s lack of evidence.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Wasn't Clemens acquitted of using PEDs in a court of law? So he is under suspicion mostly in the court of public opinion despite s lack of evidence.

As I recall, the only evidence against Clemens is

1) His trainer's testimony, whose story frequently changed while under pressure from the government to give others up. The only physical evidence McNamee provided was not really evidence at all, as Clemens never denied that McNamee gave him injections of other things, and so the needle itself doesn't prove either man's story. Neither Clemens nor McNamee was consistent.

2) Andy Pettite's also not consistent memory of a conversation in which he believed Clemens said he had tried them.



I believe that in all likelihood Clemens did in fact use them, but the evidence is extremely flimsy, at best. A massive waste of taxpayer money to pursue this loser of a case. His bizarre aging pattern is much more indicative than the testimonial.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

As I recall, the only evidence against Clemens is

1) His trainer's testimony, whose story frequently changed while under pressure from the government to give others up. The only physical evidence McNamee provided was not really evidence at all, as Clemens never denied that McNamee gave him injections of other things, and so the needle itself doesn't prove either man's story. Neither Clemens nor McNamee was consistent.

2) Andy Pettite's also not consistent memory of a conversation in which he believed Clemens said he had tried them.



I believe that in all likelihood Clemens did in fact use them, but the evidence is extremely flimsy, at best. A massive waste of taxpayer money to pursue this loser of a case. His bizarre aging pattern is much more indicative than the testimonial.

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

He was charged with lying to Congress about his PED use, so there must have been some evidence he had used PEDs to bring the charge. I don't remember enough of the details, but the part about a delivery being for his wife sounds familiar. Apparently whatever evidence there was didn't convince a jury since he was acquitted.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

He was charged for perjury regarding denying PED use - i.e. no proof of PED use, no perjury. They had to prove he used PED's, and provided only two real pieces of evidence. One, the testimony of a serial liar who said everything under the sun about Clemens at different points when different things benefited him, and 2 Pettite's testimony who admitted on cross that there was a 50-50 chance he had misheard or misunderstood Clemens. They had absolutely nothing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

He was charged for perjury regarding denying PED use - i.e. no proof of PED use, no perjury. They had to prove he used PED's, and provided only two real pieces of evidence. One, the testimony of a serial liar who said everything under the sun about Clemens at different points when different things benefited him, and 2 Pettite's testimony who admitted on cross that there was a 50-50 chance he had misheard or misunderstood Clemens. They had absolutely nothing.

One of the weaker prosecutions in memory, for sure. The witnesses were disasters. If your burden is to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, you need to do better than that.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There was also the weirdness, and I can't recall if it was part of the trial or separate, where Roger claimed a shipment or delivery to his house of HGH was in fact for Debbie his wife.

For clarity he was not charged with using PEDs, his alleged crime was lying to Congress.

As a Clemens fan it was hard to watch. Luckily I don't care what my sports heroes are like in real life. I am a fan because of what they do/have done in the sport. I also truly understand they ALL cheat(ed) anyway possible to make and keep their insanely high paying job.

[bigfanNY]

If Mays had passed away 5 years ago I might understand the arguments against Bonds. But in those 5 years Bud Selig and David Ortiz were both elected into the Hall of Fame. So saying the PED's make any player Persona non grata etc. Carries no weight. I am old enough to have seen Mantle Once..Mays at least 5 times same with Aaron, The early 70's O's the Mid 70's Reds Schmidt. But Bonds on the field and more importantly in the box was just head and shoulders above any of them. I would travel to Philly and Shea just to see him. He was clearly the Best Baseball Player I ever saw. Never mind the MVP's the stats etc. Watching how pitchers entire teams changed how they played when they faced him. It was a pleasure and a privilege to watch.

[JollyElm]

Barry Bonds walks into a room already having all of the questions and answers to an IQ Test in hand. After finishing up, he'll be hailed as the smartest (living) man in the world by some people.

PATHETIC!!!!!!!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Since he was initially a pitcher, it wouldn't surprise me if he had a good throwing arm in the outfield. However, I don't remember him ever being talked about as a great fielder. Maybe it's just because of all the focus on his hitting and because the fielding stats aren't as plentiful from that time.

I read that his contemporaries said that Ruth was an excellent defensive player who never threw to the wrong base. And he was a right fielder, where the better defensive guys played (as opposed to left field, that is.) Clemente, Furillo, Kaline had the cannons, as opposed to their left field counterparts.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One of the weaker prosecutions in memory, for sure. The witnesses were disasters. If your burden is to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt, you need to do better than that.

It would be nice if they would choose to prosecute strong cases for meaningful crimes with identifiable victims instead of wasting tons of money on showboating, revenge, and/or fame-chasing prosecutions. The only reason to go after Bonds and Clemens alone among the steroid accused was that they were the two biggest names. There was a case to be made against Bonds, though it was silly to spend so much time and effort on such a petty crime, but there wasn’t even a case at all on Clemens. Would be nice if we could save our money instead.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I read that his contemporaries said that Ruth was an excellent defensive player who never threw to the wrong base. And he was a right fielder, where the better defensive guys played (as opposed to left field, that is.) Clemente, Furillo, Kaline had the cannons, as opposed to their left field counterparts.

Ruth played about as many games in left field as in right. At least, if this is right.

Ruth played in 1128 games in right field, another 1047 in left field, 163 as a pitcher, 74 in center field, and 32 at first base.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ruth played about as many games in left field as in right. At least, if this is right.

Ruth played in 1128 games in right field, another 1047 in left field, 163 as a pitcher, 74 in center field, and 32 at first base.

I wonder when they would decide to play him at first

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Carter08

I wonder when they would decide to play him at first

Looks like 18 of the games at first were during 2 seasons with Boston. The rest are scattered throughout the years with the Yankees. I never knew he played so many games in left. I only remember ever hear him talked about as a right fielder.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Carter08

I wonder when they would decide to play him at first

Oh, you know. Whenever Gehrig needed a rest day.

[jingram058]

Babe Ruth pitched 5 games for the Yankees, 4 as the starting pitcher and 1 in relief, and he won all 5.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Babe Ruth pitched 5 games for the Yankees, 4 as the starting pitcher and 1 in relief, and he won all 5.

His ERA for rhe Yankees was 5.52.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His ERA for rhe Yankees was 5.52.

Who cares. He won.