Regarding the SOVEREIGN "apple green" back phenomena....some interesting stuff

[tedzan]

The recognition of the SOVEREIGN 350 cards with the "apple green" backs is a recent phenomena to T206 collectors. It started with Art Martineau and Jim Rivera noting
the color difference of certain SOVEREIGN 350 cards. Rivera contacted me (circa 2008), since he was aware that I had a complete 402-card SOVEREIGN set.

I arrange the cards in all my T206 sets according to their Series (150, 350, 350/460, 460, etc.). Therefore....it became immediately evident to me, as I flipped thru the
pages of my album, that the apple green cards were exclusively associated with the 55 subjects in the 350/460 series. Furthermore, as I went thru the entire set scan-
ning the backs of all the cards, I discovered that the 6 Super-Prints (with SOVEREIGN 350 backs)....and the Joe Doyle, Red Kleinow (NY-catching), Simon Nichols (bat),
Bob Rhoades (right arm extended), and Frank Smith (white cap) were printed with apple green backs. Resulting in the grand total = 66 subjects.

I called Scot Reader regarding my observations. We arrived at the conclusion that this color change was American Lithographic's way of identifying the subjects from
their 350 Series, which they had intended to extend into their subsequent 460 Series. My point here is....that this discovery was quite a collaborative effort between
Net54er's.

For more info on this subject, check-out this Link to the thread posted Oct 2009, that first identifieded the apple green cards............
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ht=apple+green


............... Joe Doyle......see note ...............






1st group of 15 subjects..... Ames - Doolan



In the forthcoming posts I will continue displaying the remaining 45 subjects with the apple-green SOVEREIGN 350 backs.....stay tuned.


Here is the complete list of the 66 cards from my SOVEREIGN set whose backs were printed with the apple green colored ink...........

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Joe Doyle (arms over head)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (NY-catching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago-white cap)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


Note......The Joe Doyle is an interesting card in this mix. A forthcoming post here will focus on his cards.


Comments and/or inputs are welcome.


TED Z

[DerekMichael]

What an awesome discovery! You all did great work. Many Thanks.

Derek

[teetwoohsix]

That was fun reading back through that old thread.

Are there actually three different tones of green with the Sovereign backs? I remember Jim R. responded in that thread that my Chase Sov. 460 was forrest green-but to me it looked more like those apple greens,,,,,,,so, the reason I ask if there are three shades of this green is because of the 350 series backs, there's that one that looks VERY dark. Are those the ones that are forrest green? Or, does the scanner just make it appear that dark?

The reason I ask is because out of the three Sovereign backed cards I have (still have the Chase 460 in the old thread),,,, none have that really dark Sov. 350 back. Here's the other two (I hope I'm making sense):

Sincerely, Clayton

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I arrange the cards in all my T206 sets according to their Series (150, 350, 350/460, 460, etc.). It became immediately evident to me, as I flipped the pages of my album, that the apple green cards were exclusively associated with the 55 subjects in the 350/460 series.

Comments and/or inputs are welcome.

TED Z

Ted - A quick read of this thread, posted earlier in 2009 than the link you included, shows that it became immediately evident to you to look specifically at the 350/460 cards after Jim pointed you there. Your first line of post #27 says it all, but I won't pull it out of context.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112571

[tedzan]

JIM"S POST #20....5/24/2009

Originally Posted by cfc1909

thanks for all the kind words about the set.

Craig & Scot & Ted- more research needs to be done on the Sovereign 350 cards. We need to know what fronts come on the apple green and if the same front can be found with both colors.
It is kanda interesting to see if 350-460 cards are the ones with this back. maybe just an ink problem, but it will be fun researching. Maybe not an ink problem.

MY RESPONSE, POST #25....5/25/2009

Originally Posted by tedzan

As I said in my last post, I think you are on to some thing in your "apple green" observation....regarding the 55 Subjects
found in the 350/460 series of the other T-brands.

For now, I am going by memory; however, I may have a lot more than 8 apple green cards in my Sovereign set. When I
am home later today, I will check-out my set and provide you with a more definitive accounting of my apple green cards.


TED Z

Tim

I was away on 5/24/2009 when Jim contacted me (as noted in the two POSTS cited here from that thread).

When I returned home that evening I went through my SOVEREIGN set. And, as I have stated......"It became immediately evident to me (that the cards with apple green
backs were the 350/460 subjects).

Until that point in this discussion this fact was not certain, as it was based on just a sampling of SOVEREIGN cards. Furthermore, the thinking was that these cards were
either printed with the apple green color and/or the darker green color....or, they were simply faded backs. It was just a guessing game at that point.

We might still be conjecturing over the significance of the apple green cards, if it I had not completed the SOVEREIGN set....which confirmed the connection between the
apple green cards and the 350/460 series subjects. Furthermore, my set revealed 11 more apple green cards, namely the 6 super-prints with their SOVEREIGN 350 backs;
and, the Joe Doyle, Red Kleinow (NY), Simon Nichols, Bob Rhoades, and Frank Smith (white cap) cards.



This continuing effort of yours (grasping at any thing) to discredit me has become tiresome.

Part of the reason that I posted this thread is to show members on this forum that when we combine expertise, we can solve any "mystery" in this hobby.


TED Z

[tedzan]

For comparison

Apple green backs of 350/460 series cards

Green back 350-only series cards



TED Z

[g_vezina_c55]

Thanks ted to share your knowledge !

[DerekMichael]

When I was younger, I had never actually seen a T206 before, but I saw a green Cobb in the Beckett magazine one month. I did not know about the size, or the tobacco backs or anything, all I knew was that one day I wanted a green Cobb, and BADLY! Never in my wildest dreams could I have imagined all of the things that go into this particular set, and it is truly mind blowing, but it soooooo interesting, and so unique to any other hobby I have ever had. Collecting these cards has actually brought me closer to my Dad believe it or not.

I think you all do really great work, and I just want to thank all of you for opening my eyes to something so cool. You all do a really great job, and a true service to our hobby in general.

Thank you so much to all of you!

Derek

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by tedzan

For comparison

Apple green backs of 350/460 series cards

Green back 350-only series cards



TED Z

OK, I'm sure I didn't explain myself right.......The bottom card in this picture, the Green back 350-only series (the one at the bottom),,,,looks darker than what I usually consider the "normal Sov. Green", which I consider the two cards I posted in my first post.

Then, you have the "Apple Green",,,,so, is that darker one a "third color of green" or is it just the scan? I have limited experience with Soveriegn backed cards, I only have three and have never had one of those "really dark" ones.

I'm just looking for a little clarification, and would appreciate the help. Thanks.

Sincerely, Clayton

[tedzan]

Clayton

There are varying degrees of the green color on the SOVEREIGN cards. Typically, the cards in the 350-only series appear to have a deeper green back.

The "apple green" (350/460 series subjects) is a distinctive shade of yellow-green, that is un-mistakeable.

The 150 backs can vary in their shades of green.

The 460-only cards usually appear to have a lighter shade of green; however, other 460 backs are a darker shade of green.........









TED Z

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Ted - A quick read of this thread, posted earlier in 2009 than the link you included, shows that it became immediately evident to you to look specifically at the 350/460 cards after Jim pointed you there. Your first line of post #27 says it all, but I won't pull it out of context.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112571

Come on Tim. A lot of us know you and Jim used info Ted researched as your own but he don't bring that up every time you post more info. Just drop it already and stop stirring the pot. WE all are constantly solving the great hobby mysteries. Why can't it just be a conjoined effort on your guys behalf?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Come on Tim. A lot of us know you and Jim used info Ted researched as your own but he don't bring that up every time you post more info. Just drop it already and stop stirring the pot. WE all are constantly solving the great hobby mysteries. Why can't it just be a conjoined effort on your guys behalf?

Andrew-The line in your post I put in bold is absolutely false and shows how misinformed you are. Anyone paying attention to this forum for years knows that Ted and I disagree about a great number of things regarding the T206 set. This coupled with his objectionable actions leading to misinformation, makes the idea that I would hang my reputation on any work of his preposterous. If you can't see that, think what you will, as I'll never convince you otherwise.

It absolutely can be a collaborative effort and it IS. Just take a few seconds to look at the About Us page on our website and see how collaborative it is.

I will agree that my pointing out the thread where the Sovereign apple green was first attributed to the correct subjects was petty. The reason I did it was to show one example of how the collaborative effort over the years keeps slowly being rewritten to be the work of one person. I make no apologies for finding that bothersome but moving forward I'll keep it to myself.

[tedzan]

This group of cards completes the display of the 66 subjects in the SOVEREIGN set that were printed with the apple green backs


4th of 4 groups (15 subjects per sheet)....... Seymour >> Wiltse






TED Z

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

This group of cards completes the display of the 66 subjects in the SOVEREIGN set that were printed with the apple green backs


[B]


TED Z

The Doc White appears to be 'road apple' green.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

This coupled with his objectionable actions leading to misinformation, makes the idea that I would hang my reputation on any work of his preposterous.

What "objectionable actions leading to misinformation" are you talking about, Tim ? I may have made a mistake concerning the Nicholls card. But, I will remind
you that, the existence of this "SWEET CAP 150, factory 649" card was identified by others before I had mentioned it. That controversy was argued 2 years ago.
Yet, you still allude to it. This obsession of your's to continue to make this subject a "federal case" is very sad....if not laughable.

Hey people.....here is a guy (Tim), who just stated....."the idea that would hang my (Tim's) reputation on any work of his (Ted's) preposterous."

But DAMN it, he took my SOVEREIGN 350-only NO-PRINT list and included it into his website and did not have the professional courtesy to credit me. It was very
obvious because my original list (posted June 2010) "FYI..T206 SOVEREIGN front/back...." was missing Bresnahan (bat) and Downey (fielding). My inadvertent
omission.
Tim's "T206Resource" site (posted 1 1/2 years later) included these two mistakes in his SOVEREIGN checklist.

Now, I ask anyone on this forum. What is the probability of these two identical mistakes occuring....if as Tim claims....that he independently did the research ?
THE PROBABILITY OF THIS OCCURRING IS GREATER THAN A MILLION-TO-ONE.

When I saw this error in Tim's checklist, I simply informed him of it. He corrected it. Do you think he thanked me.... HECK NO ! ....if he had thanked me, it would
have been tantamount to admitting that he "stole" my research.
You can bet that he realized that he was caught in a BIG LIE.

Strictly put, Tim is a PLAGIARIZER. And, in recent years he has posted stuff that he has gleaned from other Net54 members; and, has failed to give them credit.

There are other examples regarding T206 info that I (and others) have posted on this forum the past 8 years that Tim included in his T206 site. But, Tim didn't
have the common sense decency to acknowledge.

For the better part of this past year (or more), I've tried to take the "high road" and not speak out. However, Tim's continuing negative comments (unsolicited)
towards me everytime I post something on T206's has to cease & desist.
So, here I am finally responding to them. Some of you will not like this, but it had to be said. Because it is unnecessary for this type of incessant harassment by
Tim (or anyone else) on this forum.



Look guys,

I have generously shared my expertise on many BB card issues from the 1888 Goodwin Champions (N162) to T206's to Goudey's to Play Balls to post-war cards (1947
Bond Bread, 1949 Leaf, 1948 - 1955 Bowman's, and 1952 - 1967 Topps) the past 8 years on Net54. In this process, I have helped collector's resolve their questions;
and, for the most part in a cordial and positive manner.

However, at this point in time, I will tell everyone that I am fed-up with Tim's "BULL-CRAP"......he should seek help, because this incessant obsession of his is troubling.


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Come on Tim. A lot of us know you and Jim used info Ted researched as your own but he don't bring that up every time you post more info. Just drop it already and stop stirring the pot. WE all are constantly solving the great hobby mysteries. Why can't it just be a conjoined effort on your guys behalf?

I don't think this accusation is accurate Andrew, because I for one can clearly see that Tim and Ted have quite a few different views when it comes to T206's. Also, Tim and Jim's webiste has an extensive contributor list, their information came from many different places. I think you'd have to explain exactly what information you are refering to, which I don't think you can.

I agree with your last statement, it would be nice if everyone got along (and agreed to disagree) but that's out of my hands, I mentioned in a thread a long time ago that I felt an apology was owed but after that I've just stayed out of it all.

But, I don't agree with your accustaion. If that were the case, wouldn't Tim and Ted agree on everything?

Sincerely, Clayton

*edit to add , was writing this before the post above mine ^^^^, not that it changes anything I've said.

[g_vezina_c55]

I am relatively a new member on this forum and until now i don t know anything about your different etc.

But i want to tell 1 thing to you Ted, i appreciate all your post and your research, each time you post a T206 thread i read it and follow it with all my atention. I learn many thing in the hobby with your contribution here.
Thanks.

[tedzan]

Nelson

Thanks for your very kind words.

Best regards,

TED Z

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

I am relatively a new member on this forum and until now i don t know anything about your different etc.

But i want to tell 1 thing to you Ted, i appreciate all your post and your research, each time you post a T206 thread i read it and follow it with all my atention. I learn many thing in the hobby with your contribution here.
Thanks.

BIG plus one

[sdkammeyer]

Regardless of who gets or wants credit ..... Thanks to everyone for this thread.
I just picked up my first apple green sovereign and I was glad to find this thread to shed some light, and have the opportunity to educate myself a little on the subject.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I don't think this accusation is accurate Andrew, because I for one can clearly see that Tim and Ted have quite a few different views when it comes to T206's. Also, Tim and Jim's webiste has an extensive contributor list, their information came from many different places. I think you'd have to explain exactly what information you are refering to, which I don't think you can.

I agree with your last statement, it would be nice if everyone got along (and agreed to disagree) but that's out of my hands, I mentioned in a thread a long time ago that I felt an apology was owed but after that I've just stayed out of it all.

But, I don't agree with your accustaion. If that were the case, wouldn't Tim and Ted agree on everything?

Sincerely, Clayton

*edit to add , was writing this before the post above mine ^^^^, not that it changes anything I've said.

Get the past history between these guys and it will make good sense.

[ScottFandango]

can you clear some of your old messages to make room for new ones?

thanks Ted

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

can you clear some of your old messages to make room for new ones?

thanks Ted

Scott

If you are referring to PM's....I don't care for them.

You can always email me via............

tedzan11@comcast.net

Thanks,

TED Z

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Scott

If you are referring to PM's....I don't care for them.

You can always email me via............

tedzan11@comcast.net

Thanks,

TED Z

He (hi Ted) has had 100 PMs for a long time. Love Ted but some things ain't gonna change

[tedzan]

That's correct....you can't teach an "old dinosaur new tricks"

I prefer direct contact via the good old email system......

tedzan11@comcast.net


TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I arrange the cards in all my T206 sets according to their Series (150, 350, 350/460, 460, etc.). Therefore, it became immediately evident to me, as I flipped thru
the pages of my album, that the apple green cards were exclusively associated with the 55 subjects in the 350/460 series. Furthermore, as I went thru the entire
set scanning the backs of all the cards, I discovered that the six Super-Prints (with SOVEREIGN 350 backs)....and, the Joe Doyle, Red Kleinow (NY-catching), Simon
Nichols (bat), Bob Rhoades (right arm extended), and Frank Smith (white cap) were printed with apple green backs. Resulting in the grand total = 66 subjects.


............... Joe Doyle......see note ...............

NOTE

Pictured here are the three printing phases of the Joe Doyle card. The Nat'l error card (only 8 have been confirmed) exists only with the PIEDMONT 350 back. American
Lithographic (ALC) first printed the PIEDMONT backs; and, an observant employee at ALC spotted the Nat'l mistake on the Doyle caption. So, ALC quickly stopped print-
ing of this card. And probabably discarded most of them. However, a few of these cards did get into circulation. How many, we may never know.

The card in the center is an interim version which has a "printer's mark" exactly aligned with the leftmost serif of the N of the error card. This printer's mark is apparently
the result of a hasty attempt to remove the Nat'l lettering from the printing plate. A survey was originated back in June 2007 (and has been updated since). It indicates
that 7.3 % of the Doyle cards are found with this printer's mark. Most of these cards are PIEDMONT's. To a lesser extent, this printer's mark is found on SWEET CAPORAL
cards. And, 1 (or 2) OLD MILL and POLAR BEAR Joe Doyle cards have been found with this printer's mark. No EPDG or TOLSTOI Joe Doyle cards have yet been found with
this printer's mark. For the original thread on this printer's mark, check-out..... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...slow+joe+doyle


........................ PIEDMONT 350 (only) ............................................... PIEDMONT 350 .......................................... SOVEREIGN 350

............................................../\................................................. ......................./\




I have 4 - SOVEREIGN Joe Doyle cards; and, I have seen 8 other ones. None have been found with the printer's mark. And, I do not expect that any will be found.
The SOVEREIGN apple green press runs occurred in a later phase of the printing runs (circa Summer/Fall 1910).





.................................................. .................................................. ..........................



TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

NOTE

Pictured here are the three printing phases of the Joe Doyle card. The Nat'l error card (only 8 have been confirmed) exists only with the PIEDMONT 350 back. American
Lithographic (ALC) first printed the PIEDMONT backs; and, an observant employee at ALC spotted the Nat'l mistake on the Doyle caption. So, ALC quickly stopped print-
ing of this card. And probabably discarded most of them. However, a few of these cards did get into circulation. How many, we may never know.

The card in the center is an interim version which has a "printer's mark" exactly aligned with the leftmost serif of the N of the error card. This printer's mark is apparently
the result of a hasty attempt to remove the Nat'l lettering from the printing plate. A survey was originated back in June 2007 (and has been updated since). It indicates
that 7.3 % of the Doyle cards are found with this printer's mark. Most of these cards are PIEDMONT's. To a lesser extent, this printer's mark is found on SWEET CAPORAL
cards. And, 1 (or 2) OLD MILL and POLAR BEAR Joe Doyle cards have been found with this printer's mark. No EPDG or TOLSTOI Joe Doyle cards have yet been found with
this printer's mark. For the original thread on this printer's mark, check-out..... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...slow+joe+doyle


........................ PIEDMONT 350 (only) ............................................... PIEDMONT 350 .......................................... SOVEREIGN 350

............................................../\................................................. ......................./\




I have 4 - SOVEREIGN Joe Doyle cards; and, I have seen 8 other ones. None have been found with the printer's mark. And, I do not expect that any will be found.
The SOVEREIGN apple green press runs occurred in a later phase of the printing runs (circa Summer/Fall 1910).





.................................................. .................................................. ..........................



TED Z

The following is an UPDATE of the survey I started regarding the Joe Doyle printer's mark in June 2007. The current numbers reflect that 7.3 % of the Joe Doyle cards
sampled have this printer's mark.

UPDATED as of Jan 23, 2013


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........10...........84

Sweet Cap 350.......6..........115

Polar Bear..............2............17

Old Mill..................1.............6

Sovereign 350.........0...........12

Tolstoi...................0.............4

EPDG.....................0.............1
.
Unknown back.........0.............2
____________________________

Totals................. 19 ........ 241


If anyone on this forum has not previously reported their Joe Doyle card with/without this printer's mark, we would like to hear from you.

And, please identify the T-brand back of your card.
The survey continues.


Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

PRINTER's MARK................/\


UPDATED as of Jan 24, 2013

T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........10............85

Sweet Cap 350.......6...........116

Polar Bear..............2............17

Old Mill..................1.............6

Sovereign 350.........0...........12

Tolstoi...................0.............4

EPDG.....................0.............1
.
Unknown back.........0.............2
____________________________

Totals................. 19 ........ 243


Two new inputs......a PIEDMONT and a SWEET CAPORAL......neither with Mark.

19/262 = 7.2 % Joe Doyle cards with printer's mark


If anyone on this forum has not previously reported their Joe Doyle card with (or without) this printer's mark,
we would like to hear from you.

And, please identify the T-brand back of your card.
This survey continues.

Thanks,

TED Z

[cobblove]

Very cool thread. I enjoyed all this info.
I only have 1 Sovereign back and I bought it because it was so dang bright on the back. Just love it. But now seeing those apple greens, its making me want to find one like that or make a run of the different shades. Very cool.
Well here is mine. Its so green it looks blue to me but its not I know.
Its a bender with trees.

Thanks for posting this info!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by cobblove

Very cool thread. I enjoyed all this info.
I only have 1 Sovereign back and I bought it because it was so dang bright on the back. Just love it. But now seeing those apple greens,
its making me want to find one like that or make a run of the different shades. Very cool. Well here is mine. Its so green it looks blue to
me but its not I know. Its a bender with trees.



Thanks for posting this info!

It's been my experience that the deeper green backs are mostly found on the 350-only Series subjects. Like your Bender (trees) card. Very nice find.

If you are interested in acquiring an apple green SOVEREIGN, a 150 Series, and 460 Series backs....email me and I will see what I have to offer.

tedzan11@comcast.net


Thanks for the compliment.

TED Z