A question of credibility (Bushing's Degree)

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Posted By: Aaron

Gotta agree with Dan on this one. Yes, it's suspicious, but it's a simple question to answer.

I don't know dave e-mail, but huis E-Bay ID is dbushing1. You can contact him on the site. If he ignores you, then ask Troy, etc.

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Posted By: PASJD

"The other factor that has not been discussed yet is that someone that has a Master's Degree obviously would be considered to be someone whom has a higher education than most people due to the additional time spent in school/university doing detailed research and study. That perception may add further value to someone's opinion of said individual when evaluating their overall credentials."

Hell Hal has a Doctoral degree (which is higher than a Master's), as do I, and that probably detracts from rather than adds to anyone's opinion of us.

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Posted By: al davis

PASJD: now i get it! as a lawyer you require a preponderance of evidence or even overwhelming proof that something isn't proper. as a consumer, i'm not bound by the constraints of a legal system to tell me that something just doesn't smell right.

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Posted By: Marc S.

Yes, lying/falsification is bad.

However - for me, the bottom line is that a Master's does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to add or detract from Bushing's ability to be a good bat authenticator.

It doesn't say he has an MBA [since he is in a business], and there are not Masters of Bat Authentication - so all a masters would add is some level of expertise in some, potentially random, field that bears no relevance to Bushing's ability to grade bats.

In such a context - this is a large non-issue for me.

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Posted By: PASJD

I emailed Mr. Allen to see if he could clear this up. He says his understanding is that Mr. Bushing completed all his course work for his Master's degree, but when he decided to change fields, he did not complete his dissertation. So those are the "facts" at least as Mr. Allen understands them. My personal opinion remains that this is much ado about nothing.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

So, we're supposed to ask Bushing if he has a Masters? During that same conversation can we also ask him if he owns all the **** that has been authenticated by him and is for sale all over the planet?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Why not ask him? It's pretty easy to check with the school to see if he's lying or not so why would he lie about something like that.....besides it appears Doug Allen has already answered the question anyway.

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Posted By: Robert Plancich

I asked Mr. Bushing about his degree about two years ago. I will check to see if I still have the original email but he confirmed to me that he did not have a Master's Degree.

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Posted By: MW

If Doug Allen and Robert Plancich are correct and David Bushing does not have an MA then why was it being advertised that way and who approved for it to be written up that way on Mastronet.com?

I'm going to agree with Marc that these are relatively minor issues when it comes to the expertise of bat authentication, but I do think they might reveal something about one's credibility.

To be perfectly fair to everyone, however, I'm going to assume it was just an oversight or misunderstanding.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Robert, nice to see you back here after the legal butt kicking you gave the dark side yesterday. Also, there was a nice article in the NY Daily News about it. And what a surprise to learn that Bushing may not have a Master's Degree. If he writes up a diploma tonight that verifies that he has a Master's from Dave Bushleague U, does that count?

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Posted By: Aaron

OK, so Bushing does not have a Master's degree (Vikes, you were right), and once agains this site brings change. Shouldn't Bushing's bio reflect this at whatever auction site lists it?

Jeff, do you have a link to the Planich article you mention?

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Posted By: MW

The NYDN article:

http://www.nydailynews.com/03-02-2005/sports/baseball/yankees/story/285832p-244760c.html

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Posted By: I'm Sorry Amigos

Do You?

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Posted By: mcavoy

I agree, whether Mr Bushing does or does not have a Master's degree, the degree does not reflect his ability to evaluate bats; however, the claims of his completed degree are a public signal of his ability (he gets respect from archives with such claims, I am sure), and imo reflect credibility.

Suppose, Mr. A has an item with Mr. Bushing's signature attesting to provenance of a bat from 2002, which he relied upon. In court,

Lawyer: During 2002, your bio states you have a Master's degree.
Bushing: I completed all the requirements.
Lawyer: You do not have a Master's degree. How do we believe your claims in your letter you wrote during 2002 about this bat?
Bushing: I looked at the bat and studied its characteristics.

As my good buddy used to say: Gaaaammmmmeeeeee Ovvvvvvvvvvverrrrrrrrrrrrr

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Posted By: vikes066

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Posted By: The Question Again

?

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Posted By: jay behrens

I'm not defending BUshing in awnyway here. To use the O'Leary example, did the padding of his resume cost him the ND job? Yep, sure did. But ya know what, he's still coaching somewhere. The same will be true for Bushing. He will still be authenticating bats, regardless, because he is one of the best at what he does.

Let the witch hunt continue

Jay



I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Jayism At Work

Let the witch hunt continue"

Jay
*
*
*
???

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Posted By: Aaron

Jay, you're not defending Dave in any way, but say he is the best at what he does and you categorize criticsim of his falsifying his resume as a "witch hunt"? I suppose the whole Planich affair or uncovering of other authentication mistakes and criticism of undisclosed conflict of interest are part of a "witch hunt" as well?

Come on, get serious. Are you and Bushing buds now or something?

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Posted By: vikes066

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Posted By: jay behrens

Vikes, show me someone that got fired for that after they got a job. I remember reading an article womewhere that over 1/3 of all people lie on their resume about advanced degrees. If this is case, then there should be mass firings. Most companies, while they would be pissed and prolly won't promote the person any time in the near future, will keep that person around if they are performing to or beyond expectations. Bottom line is...the bottom line. If you can make moeny for a company, they don't really care what your background is or how you got there, just make them money.

O'Leary may have a black mark on his record, but it didn't keep him from getting a job, and doubt this will keep Bushing from authenticating bats.

And like good little trained monkeys, Joe and Aaron jumped just as I trained them to.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: vikes066

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Posted By: leon

I respectfully disagree. I don't think you can lump "everyone" into one category about being fired if they are found to have lied on a resume. Even though my job is not necessarily education sensitive many are. Do you think a doctor or a lawyer or a professor wouldn't get in trouble (or fired or disbarred) for lieing on a resume? regards

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Posted By: jay behrens

Remaining ethical on a personal level in business is almost impossible. I know. I've owned a few businesses and my personal ethics have always gotten in the way of them really taking off. Look at almost every sucessful business, whether it's Microsoft, or whoever, a lot of unethical things took place for them to get hwere they are. And they are things that these people would never consider doing in their personal life. But when it comes to money, all bets are off. It's the dark side of capitalism and as long as it's legal, heell even if it's illegal, ethics be damned, we are gonna make a buck. Just make sure we don't get caught.

Yes, whoever listed Bushing having a Masters did a bad thing and doesn't reflect well on Bushing. But this a witch hunt. Planich made claims about the DiMaggio bat that were inaccurate or flat out wrong. Everything I've seen from both sides says that most likely the bat is what it is claimed to be. When this was pointed out, we were shills for SCDA so a new point of contention needed to be found. As each thing that is brought and discussed, something new needed to be discoved. There are a core of people that are out to discredit Bushing at all costs. If this core is so concerned about these topics, why aren't they investing Taube and all the other gamer experts? Almost all the concerns brought up about Bushing are industry wide issues. As long as Bushing is the sole target, then this is nothing more than a witch hunt.

And the auction houses are still getting off light on this whole game used issue.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: david

when it comes to authentication there is a big difference between 'most likely' and 'auctually'. dimaggio 'most likely' stepped on the same grass at yankee stadium that bernie williams steps on today, 'actually' that couldnt be further from the truth

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Posted By: davidcycleback

On a personal basis, I don't think this is a great issue, but I do agree one shouldn't lie or fib on one's resume. My dad always told me that you should never lie or artificially embellish your resume, because, at the least, it can make you look foolish.

I criticize the powers that be, and have loudly pointed out errors at MastroNet, PSA etc. My hope when I criticize is not to tear down a man or institution, but to 1)Protect the collectors (they are always my priority) and 2) Hope the institutions or experts improve. If an auction house that rubbed me the wrong way because they've done some bad things tries their best to correct their ways and over times does improve, I think that's good and give them credit. If over time they are doing a good and honest job, I don't hold a grudge for past errors. I never criticize simply to be vindictive.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

We have been over the question of how items are authenticated ad nauseum and the essential conclusion is that the authenticity statement relies on the public perception of the credibility and honesty of the authenticator. PRO or Roy Huff could authenticate a real T206 Cobb and no one here would give him a nickel for it; PSA can and has authenticated fake cards that have sold for thousands. I don't care whether Mr. Bushing has a masters' degree, but I do care very much when a supposedly authoritative voice either was so sloppy as to not read his published resume or lied on his resume. Either way it reflects on his diligence and care, and if the latter on his personal integrity.

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Posted By: Julie

definitive about Asian Art, they might. hey--even vintage baseball cards!

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Posted By: vikes066

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Posted By: Marc S.

What is your BATNA? Best Alternative to Negotiated Agreement?

I guess, in this case, you have the name and resume of a preferable Bat Expert readily available?

Please disclose!

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Posted By: Aaron

"And like good little trained monkeys, Joe and Aaron jumped just as I trained them to."

Jay that's so funny, I was about to say the same about you and Bushing/Mastro!

Since your visit, you've been acting as a vehement shill for both, almost as though you'd been brainwashed during your visit to Mastro. Don't sweat it though, even Homer couldn't withstand the lures of The Leader...

The Leader (Bushing) is good, The Leader (Bushing) is great, surrender your money as of this date....

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Posted By: Robert Plancich

WHERE MONEY LIES, INTEGRITY DIES!

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Posted By: PASJD

1. To clarify a prior question, I am the person who emailed Mr. Allen about this thread and posted his response (with his permission). It seemed an easy enough thing to do to find out the facts even if others were more interested in propounding conspiracy theories.

2. I am willing to give Mr. Bushing, and Mastro, the benefit of the doubt here. Given that in my estimation no purpose is served by any intentional "lie," as possession of an unspecified Master's degree in no way enhances Mr. Bushing's authority to authenticate bats, I assume no bad intent on anyone's part. This easily could have arisen from a misunderstanding.

3. Even if it did not, and Mr. Bushing told a "little white lie" on an irrelevant matter for whatever reason, to me that is not enough to cast any doubt either on his overall credibility or his ability to authenticate bats. Are you holier-than-thou people out there on a witchhunt telling me you have never made a misstatement in your professional lives? Sure, I believe ya. As a famous person said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Enjoy the witchhunt. I am sure it will have dramatic repercussions.

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Posted By: Aaron

"Given that in my estimation no purpose is served by any intentional "lie," as possession of an unspecified Master's degree in no way enhances Mr. Bushing's authority to authenticate bats, I assume no bad intent on anyone's part."

Actually I would disagree with that. Why then include collegiate education in any of their employees/authenticators' biographies? It's to convey a level of intelligence and education to reassure potential customers that these guys aren't some yokels (no offense, Jay) and that they have strong resumes and backgrounds and are credible.

Of course, there's no Master's degree in bat authentication (or card grading for that matter), so the degree is meant simply to add overall value to a resume to make the customer believe the authenticator is more credible by virtue of his higher education.

And I agree with Adam. The degree itself is essentially meaningless. It's why the degree appeared on Bushing's bio that seems to be the issue that goes to credibility.

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Posted By: Morrie

Some scary reading, relating to resume fraud:

Homeland Security?

In answer to Jay's question, yes, people can get fired for this stuff. I don't know enough about Bushing to have an opinion on the man or what he did.

Morrie

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Posted By: Aaron

"Enjoy the witchhunt."

You're right, we're all being terribly unfair.

I think it's time we leave the Alan Hager's and Broadway Rick's and various E-Bay scammers of the world alone.

If people want to lie on their resumes, fine. If people want to hide conflict of interest, fine. If people don't to hear about multiple egregious authentication errors in fields that they are supposedly "the best there is" at, fine.

Live and let live that's my new motto....

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Posted By: MW

"Planich made claims about the DiMaggio bat that were inaccurate or flat out wrong."


Jay,

I strongly disagree. I believe it was Robert Plancich who first pointed out the conflict of interest and who also questioned the "A10" designation given to the bat. I have found Robert's statements to be reasonable and compelling. Even David Bushing himself agreed that Robert had brought about positive changes in his statements in one of the New York Daily News articles.

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Posted By: PASJD

Oh give me a break Aaron. Because I don't view this PARTICULAR MATTER as justifiying character assasination means that I am willing to turn a blind eye to other sorts of fraud? Perhaps you should take a more nuanced view of things instead of engaging in silly rhetoric.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

No one answered my question, repeated below

"My question after reading the evidence used in this thread ("I don't know, but it's possible, so let's assume the worst because we're already made our conclusion"), is this the same level of facts people use to say the DiMaggio bat was bad?"

I don't collect bats, so I don't know the normal methodology that seasoned collectors use to judge the authenticity or lack therof of bats. Most experienced collectors in other areas, like baseball cards or photographs or sclupture or paintings or coins or prints or vases, find out the facts first (like calling up Doug Allen or Dave Bushing and asking if Bushing has a masters) then come up with a conclusion from the known facts. Is the standard methodology the opposite in the game used bat hobby? And, if so, what is the the point of persuing facts if the conclusion has already been made? Is the problem with Jay and Lee and Dan that they took the trip to MatroNet to interview Dan Knoll and Dave Bushing and looked at records and bats and videotape, THEN formed their opinion on the situation? Just curious, because I don't follow the game used bat hobby like others.

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Posted By: mcavoy

Good point (cycleback).

I don't collect bats, but ...

Mr. Bushing probably has a wealth of knowledge I would highly consider if I collected bats, whether he has a Master's or not. His knowledge may be questioned by some, but perhaps not by most. If I did not consider his knowledge to be reliable, I could find alternative sources, or opinions, I imagine. No mention yet of credibility.

Now, if I was sued by an authenticator service & auction house's customer, I'd be very interested in the background and credibility of the customer, authenticator service, and the auction house's experts.

I wonder if there is a case of a customer suing someone who is quoted in the newspapers or posts in chatboards about the alleged lack of reliability of a any company's graded card product. With the stories about the high-grade Wagner, what if a buyer, someday, used a civil case against some of those who posted alleging its condition, and was supported by the grading service (Back on topic - vintage cards, ha!)?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

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Posted By: vikes066

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Posted By: Aaron

"Oh give me a break Aaron. Because I don't view this PARTICULAR MATTER as justifying character assassination means that I am willing to turn a blind eye to other sorts of fraud? Perhaps you should take a more nuanced view of things instead of engaging in silly rhetoric."

Hmn, then I would suggest if others disagree with you and do find this PARTICULAR MATTER troublesome, you not resort to engaging in such silly rhetoric as describing their concern as "character assassination" and a "witchhunt".

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Posted By: Marc S.

You seem to have a definition of credibility that is not supported by the general public.

Interesting choice of examples with Clinton and Martha Stewart.

Clinton, while impeached, was probably the most popular president besides Reagen in the last 35 years. Even generally being a Republican, I nonetheless concede that Clinton frequently won the hearts of the public and is still warmly received today.

Stewart, also, is now richer and seemingly more popular than she was when she went into prison. Heck - she's on the cover of popular news periodicals and has a ton of business opportunities at her behest, not to mention all the money.

Again - not defending either of them, rather pointing out your use of them as examples, since, in my mind, both of them have solidly overcome their 'character flaws' in the minds of the public.

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Posted By: WP

MW,
You make some great points, thanks for the link to the DN article. Where does it list the bat as being "A10" and what exactly does that designation stand for. I checked the catalog and found nothing helpful in there.

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Posted By: vikes066

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Posted By: PASJD

"Obviously there are people that have or are willing to give Bushing the benefit of any doubt. I have no problem with that. Hey if I was deep into the hobby like some members here are I'd be protective for Bushing at well."

Once again, an assumption not based on facts at least in my case. I do not own a SINGLE piece of memorabilia. I give him the benefit of the doubt because I do not see this in the sinister light that you holier-than-thou, never said anything that wasn't 100 percent true in my life types see it in. Oh and by the way, why don't you guys put your money where your mouths are and instead of just spouting off self-righteously in this forum about credibility, write or call Doug Allen (or Dave Bushing himself) and engage with them over this issue.

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Posted By: MW

"Where does it list the bat as being "A10" and what exactly does that designation stand for. I checked the catalog and found nothing helpful in there."


Wallypost,

I believe the April 2004 Mastronet catalog lists the DiMaggio bat along with the grade/certification. Also, the New York Daily News Article from June 5, 2004 writes the following:

"Everything meshes," says Bushing, who gave the bat an A-10 grade, his highest mark. "Everything is 100% verifiable. This bat was used during the streak."

As far as the designation is concerned, "A10" would indicate the highest level of authentication that could be given to an item by David Bushing/SCDA.

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Posted By: Amy

Whether or not Bushing is an expert... whether or not Bushing is honest... he is still just guessing.

That's something that many people seem to forget.

I feel that both Bushing and Mastro are dishonest in how they present the items. Bushing authenticates them as fact. Mastro promotes/auctions them as fact.

Re: The "DiMaggio streak bat"

Anybody who saw the Mastro catalogue was led to believe that the bat was a DiMaggio streak bat as if it were a fact. That's dishonest and misleading, in my opinion. The reality is that it was merely a guess, and not a fact.

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Posted By: vikes066

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