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  #51  
Old 11-19-2008, 10:37 AM
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Posted By: Matt

The content of this post was corrected and reposted below.

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  #52  
Old 11-19-2008, 11:46 AM
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Posted By: Cat

"...if your bid does not meet the reserve, they DO NOT bid you up with a house account to meet the reserve..."

This, to me, makes all the difference.

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  #53  
Old 11-19-2008, 12:30 PM
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Posted By: dan mckee

"...if your bid does not meet the reserve, they DO NOT bid you up with a house account to meet the reserve..."

This has never happened at a Hunt Auction that I have attended. I have NEVER seen anyone think they won to go pay and find out that a reserve wasn't met.

I think this is false and that house bidder numbers are used.

This is my strong opinion and I also don't feel it is such a bad thing.

Any other people here who have attended the many live auctions ever go up after the hammer fell and you were the winner to have Hunts tell you you can't have the item because of a reserve???

I think not, that would cause some serious issues and legal ramifications I would imagine.

Dan

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  #54  
Old 11-19-2008, 12:44 PM
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Posted By: Jim VB

Do they end each auction with the word "Sold!"? It seems to me that if they do, they can't later tell you that the item didn't meet reserve.


Also, am I the only one that finds it ironic that Hunt Auctions claims NOT to be an auction house?

Next thing you'll tell me is that General Electric doesn't make electric appliances or that Corning Glass doesn't make glassware. happy.gif

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  #55  
Old 11-19-2008, 12:59 PM
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Posted By: leon

I still like to know reserves I am shooting at and I have never heard Hunt Auctions wasn't an auction house (wow)...I guess I learn something new every day...take care

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  #56  
Old 11-19-2008, 01:09 PM
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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

I think your tongue is stuck in your cheek...........

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  #57  
Old 11-19-2008, 01:53 PM
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Posted By: Matt

I tried to keep any editorializing out of the previous post and just report the conversation but will make a few comments here:

By claiming Hunt was not offering absolute auctions, Dave cleverly avoided having to explain why the reserves were set so high that 43 out of 97 lots didn't meet them. He said that people who bid in Hunt auctions are aware of this, but I certainly was not - I expected a fair shot to win the lots I was bidding on.

One point which was particularly frustrating was that he would not acknowledge that the reserves were to high, instead, blaming the location for the poor sell rate, even though he admitted that 60% of bids are absentee bids and it should not matter where the physical auction is held for them. Again, since they are not a pure auction house, bidders should have no expectation that the reserves will be what the bidders consider reasonable.







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  #58  
Old 11-20-2008, 06:37 AM
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Posted By: Matt

Dave called this morning because he felt he would have worded some of the above post differently, and will send back his notes for posting once he has a chance.

Specifically, he wanted to clarify that Hunt does not offer "absolute auctions" (instead of the terminology "pure auction") and also that they DO bid with a house account to bring the lot up to the undisclosed reserve. He also wouldn't have used the word "hidden" to describe the reserve since he feels it has nefarious connotations.

I'm leaving the original post above unedited, so the comments make sense.

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  #59  
Old 11-20-2008, 06:44 AM
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Posted By: Jim VB

"...they DO bid with a house account to bring the lot up to the undisclosed reserve."

Well, that explains why they would never have bidders finding out after the fact that they didn't win. In any auction where the bidding stops, the house would have made the last bid.

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  #60  
Old 11-20-2008, 07:10 AM
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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

About the venue...........

I've been to all 4 or 5 auctions at Slugger since I live in Louisville. This year, the cards didn't do that well but in past years, I don't think that can be said. Since they have their previous auction results online, it should be relatively easy to compare cards to cards, year to year. While there were some individually nice cards, I didn't think the overall grouping of cards was as strong as in previous years. That may be due to a lack of consignments due to the economy. I specifically remember last or year before last that there was a really nice grouping of T206's in 15-20 lots that were astonishingly high and better selection of T, E, & N cards in other auctions here. But, then again, the market for T206's was much stronger a couple years ago and the market in general was as well.

I'd agree with David for sure that 1/2 or more of the winning (or so they thought) bids come from the phones. That is clear and there are/were probably only 50-60 people in the room other than those touring the museum all day. And......as the day progressed, those in the room scattered or left. Maybe that's an indicator that the onsite crowd is clearly looking more for bats and memorabilia than for cards. I would say that, if the selection was better, the venue for cards shouldn't make a difference. Not like any of us didn't know it was going on. Same catalog mailing list likely along with same notifications, etc. I think the econonmy is clearly hurting some results as well as the selection had to hurt a little. Just my opinion.......

As for the auction..........it was run extremely well onsite with only hiccups on a couple lots. I can't believe the auctioneer Scott can do that many lots in that amount of time with a 5 minute break only. Didn't see him eat anything from 10a-630p either. Was pleased with the lots I won at the prices I won them but no cards.....


#'S taken directly from Hunts posted H&B Auction results........
[linked image]



Includes buyer's premium
2006 Auction was a 2 day event, all others 1 day event
Didn't have time to compare CARDS to CARDS from the auction........

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  #61  
Old 11-20-2008, 07:50 AM
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Posted By: jdrum

Tom's sentiment, I think the venue had very little to nothing to do with the results. The cards by and large were low grade and suffered their fate as such. This may be the segment of the hobby right now that is most "depressed" by the current economic conditions. Also the hidden or whatever reserves may have been overly optimistic given the cards and the times. At least next year when I drive up from Atlanta I will know I am not really going to an auction but somethng more like a sale and an auction.



Again, very well run.

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  #62  
Old 11-20-2008, 01:05 PM
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Posted By: Matt

Dave followed up on his word with an email. He edited yesterday's post to add in his corrections, so while it seems like I'm the one talking, many of the words are his. The bottom line is that he agrees with this version of statements regarding Hunt's policies. What we can all agree on, is that him being pro-active volunteering to clarify what Hunt's true policies are is a positive.


"First and foremost, he wanted to clarify that, with a scant few exceptions over its nearly 20 year history, Hunt's has not offered "absolute auctions" if they did then whoever is willing to pay the most at the time would come away with the lot. They don't claim to do so and their TOS does not say that they do.

Hunt's auctions have reserves amounts that are not disclosed that are almost always below or sometimes at the "low estimate" price published in their catalogs. I suggested that the reserve amount be made public and he said that they made a business decision not to do as in the case of a live auction venue that practice tends to cause more confusion then clarity. The fact that the DNS items are almost immediately posted online provides bidders and consignors alike with the opportunity to clearly see which lots did or did not sell and avoids the confusion associated with the aforementioned; he followed that he's had very few complaints that their reserves aren't disclosed so they don't view it as an issue. If there are 2 or 3 more auctions where a larger percentage of the lots don't sell then they will re-investigate the issue, but he feels that because the reserves are at or below the lower estimate, that enough disclosure is already being made for someone to decide if they want to bid on the lot.

Those who attend the live auction would be interested to learn that if your bid does not meet the reserve, they DO bid you up with a house account to meet the undisclosed reserve (as SCP used to do). This practice has been utilized by Hunt in every one of their auctions for the past 18 years and is always announced as such before the beginning of the sale with David Hunt personally conducting the bidding so as to eliminate any doubt as to the auction procedure. Although not all lots have reserve prices, when they do they are bid upon by Hunt Auctions on behalf of the consignor in a completely competitive fashion against other absentee, live, and telephone bidders. It is Hunt Auctions opinion that this system allows that all bidders are given a completely fair chance to win the lot without any one party having an advantage over another.

He felt the reasons that there were a large amount of card lots in this offering that did not meet reserve were several, the main one being the specific venue for the live auction, which apparently caused the auction to be poorly attended with respect to card collectors and dealers. He said live bidders are usually responsible for winning about 40% of the lots. Furthermore, on occasion such off site unique venues such as Louisville can be a challenge to garner the in person attendance typically in place when card prices tend to be higher. Additionally, there is no question that the economy certainly has had an effect on the card prices most notably in the mid to lower grade examples which were not coincidentally primarily the categories that went unsold.

He also wanted to stress that Hunt holds itself to the highest standards of honesty of any major auction house and feels that it would be difficult for any major auction house to truly claim more then 90% of lots sold.

He was absolutely gracious and took the time to answer all of my questions and he deserves praise for that as well as his honesty in making some of the above statements."

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  #63  
Old 11-20-2008, 05:39 PM
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Posted By: dan mckee

I don't stand corrected, I stand correct.

"Those who attend the live auction would be interested to learn that if your bid does not meet the reserve, they DO bid you up with a house account to meet the undisclosed reserve (as SCP used to do). "

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