Disturbing Confession ...

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Well why then didn't he have a fake ID or three set up for when he was on the verge of being exposed? With all the money he made, he could then have easily lived very comfortably in several places after disappearing, e.g. a luxury condo in a big city such as New York where nobody knows his neighbours and out-of-the-way seasonal resorts from Maine to Wisconsin to Alabama and Louisiana accustomed to tourists coming and going?

It's called greed, Mr. Fox. They just keep on going and going until it's too late.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Fact: Time and again frauds are exposed and nothing changes.

The outcome this time was very different, Rhotch.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

The outcome this time was very different, Rhotch.]

Time will tell. I am not talking about the perp (who offed himself), I am talking about the “hobby”, Samosa. Scandal after scandal for many years and the hobby just moves forward, unfazed. This will be no different.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Scandal after scandal for many years and the hobby just moves forward, unfazed. This will be no different.

Yep.

[bleeckerstreetcards]

Why would anyone buy a PSA 8/9 prewar card that has arguably higher risk of being trimmed / altered? Theres risk in every high value card purchase, and this scheme mentions nothing of older guys.

To your question on Ruth, there is a headin home signed Ruth, and multiple exhibits from the 20s. The “rookies” have a tiny population compared to Goudeys and in most cases were not marketed to kids the way his later issues were, so again simple answer… higher supply in the hands of more kids led to higher chance of those cards being brought to Ruth for signing. Not to mention in his rookie era he was not swarmed for autograph requests the way he would be in the 1930s.

The extrapolation of forged Aaron Judge and Kobe Bryant signatures on modern 8x10 photos and framed jerseys then meaning the most valuable, highly scrutinized, low pop signed vintage cards should be questioned is a leap in judgment I do not understand.

The risk in this guys modern autographs were known about by industry autograph experts for years, if you are tracking what those closest to it are saying. And the marks for this ring were largely the unsuspecting mom or dad buying a gift or item for their son or mancave at a (suspicious to hobbyists) discount, that is how he drove high volume sales. Forging one autograph of Babe Ruth on a Goudey card and getting it past the entire industry is highly unlikely to be successful and simply not how we know criminal minds typically work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by bleeckerstreetcards

Why would anyone buy a PSA 8/9 prewar card that has arguably higher risk of being trimmed / altered? Theres risk in every high value card purchase, and this scheme mentions nothing of older guys.

To your question on Ruth, there is a headin home signed Ruth, and multiple exhibits from the 20s. The “rookies” have a tiny population compared to Goudeys and in most cases were not marketed to kids the way his later issues were, so again simple answer… higher supply in the hands of more kids led to higher chance of those cards being brought to Ruth for signing. Not to mention in his rookie era he was not swarmed for autograph requests the way he would be in the 1930s.

The extrapolation of forged Aaron Judge and Kobe Bryant signatures on modern 8x10 photos and framed jerseys then meaning the most valuable, highly scrutinized, low pop signed vintage cards should be questioned is a leap in judgment I do not understand.

The risk in this guys modern autographs were known about by industry autograph experts for years, if you are tracking what those closest to it are saying. And the marks for this ring were largely the unsuspecting mom or dad buying a gift or item for their son or mancave at a (suspicious to hobbyists) discount, that is how he drove high volume sales. Forging one autograph of Babe Ruth on a Goudey card and getting it past the entire industry is highly unlikely to be successful and simply not how we know criminal minds typically work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I sent this literal explanation via PM to someone mere minutes before you wrote yours. Eerie.

The highlighted portions are the most important takeaways for all the alarmists.

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by bleeckerstreetcards

The extrapolation of forged Aaron Judge and Kobe Bryant signatures on modern 8x10 photos and framed jerseys then meaning the most valuable, highly scrutinized, low pop signed vintage cards should be questioned is a leap in judgment I do not understand.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree very strongly with this statement. The people freaking out and screaming now and for the next several weeks that 'mostly all autographs are fake' or 'if it wasn't signed in front of me, it's probably a fake' are the EXACT same people that were never interested in collecting signed items to begin with and have been complaining about them for decades. If you don't feel comfortable with them, don't collect them.

Are there a lot of modern fake autographs in the hobby on many different surfaces? YES! Are there signed & slabbed vintage fake autographs in the hobby? Yes, probably, but a very tiny fraction compared to all the modern signed jerseys, helmets, balls, photos, etc. If you've studied a signature and done your homework on vintage players' autographs for decades like some of us, it's pretty easy to pick out the bad ones or at least get an uneasy feeling where red flags will instantly come up.

It sounds like the vast majority of the 'Expired Guy's' work was the modern signed sharpie or silver paint pen scribbled crap that I've never been interested in anyways. I'm personally not worried at all.

[Rhotchkiss]

Fact: Fraud exists in ALL aspects of collectibles (autos, cards, memorabilia), and not just limited to sports stuff.

Fact: Time and again frauds are exposed and nothing changes.

Fact: While I don’t know for sure, logic says/chances are
that some of my cards have been doctored, some of my autos forged, and/or some of my LOAs/slabs are wrong and/or have issues.

Fact: I know all this, yet I continue to collect/invest and have no intention of stopping.

Thems the facts as I see them (but doesn’t change the fact that this sucks balls).

Good riddance to the forger.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

I agree very strongly with this statement. The people freaking out and screaming now and for the next several weeks that 'mostly all autographs are fake' or 'if it wasn't signed in front of me, it's probably a fake' are the EXACT same people that were never interested in collecting signed items to begin with and have been complaining about them for decades. If you don't feel comfortable with them, don't collect them.

I've noticed several members here who come here just to post about how much they are sick of the hobby and everything wrong with it and are leaving. I always wondered what their end goal was; it's a bit like going to a Brazilian steakhouse and having a tantrum because they serve meat.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by egri

I've noticed several members here who come here just to post about how much they are sick of the hobby and everything wrong with it and are leaving. I always wondered what their end goal was; it's a bit like going to a Brazilian steakhouse and having a tantrum because they serve meat.

Can we set up a special B/S/T section for this group to help them get out faster? They can sell at pre-1980 prices — you know, back when it was really a hobby.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

Can we set up a special B/S/T section for this group to help them get out faster? They can sell at pre-1980 prices — you know, back when it was really a hobby.

The good old days, before fraud and greed, were amazing. You missed them. Everything was pure and wonderful and everyone was great. The good old days. The magical cure all.

Makes me think for some reason about the Twilight Zone episode in the nursing home where the guy runs outside and plays with the small children. The magic of the good old days.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bleeckerstreetcards

To your question on Ruth, there is a headin home signed Ruth, and multiple exhibits from the 20s. The “rookies” have a tiny population compared to Goudeys and in most cases were not marketed to kids the way his later issues were, so again simple answer… higher supply in the hands of more kids led to higher chance of those cards being brought to Ruth for signing. Not to mention in his rookie era he was not swarmed for autograph requests the way he would be in the 1930s.

I think these are some good points, thank you, I stand corrected.

Keep in mind, there was an arrest a few years ago of a criminal who forged many signed T206s — not players like Cobb, Mathewson or Cy Young; instead relatively obscure players. Like everything else in the hobby, signed material is also filled with numerous fakes, whether it’s Sal Bando or Babe Ruth.

It’s a risk no matter what your hobby interest is: graded cards, raw cards, memorabilia, game used, autographs. Where there’s money, there’s people out there trying to rob you of your money.

[bleeckerstreetcards]

youre right, no arguing with that. risk and fraud abound wherever there is money. and i recall learning about that one with SGC / JSA often being at the center of slabbing those T206s. way better to find era-specific / period autos or ones with some provenance wherever possible. despite the fraud risk, we try to stay educated, vigilant, and persist in the hunt for our cardboard in this silly + awesome hobby

[4815162342]

It makes sense that a skilled forger would avoid producing thousands of fake prewar signed cards with an autopen, given the limited availability of the cards, the high risk, and the certainty of close examination. Identical Ruth or Cobb signatures would quickly raise red flags.

But what happens when AI is used to create a more human-like autopen that slightly varies each signature?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

It makes sense that a skilled forger would avoid producing thousands of fake prewar signed cards with an autopen, given the limited availability of the cards, the high risk, and the certainty of close examination. Identical Ruth or Cobb signatures would quickly raise red flags.

But what happens when AI is used to create a more human-like autopen that slightly varies each signature?

That would not require AI.