Ethical question re: selling/grading

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Suppose my neighbor, who is an avid card collector, thinks it is a 6. Does that need to be disclosed, too?

I realize PSA and SGC (and the other opinion sellers) want theirs to be the Word of God... But who actually anointed them?

Fair disclosure:
A grader at XYZ thinks it is a 7
I think it is a 9
The guy I bought it from called it "near Mint"
My neighbor thinks it is a 6
My car mechanic thinks it is a 10, but he wasn't wearing his glasses at the time...

My point is, why is the opinion of one more relevant than the other. Why can't a prospective buyer do HIS OWN grade assessment (a novel thought, I admit.)

Only one has any relation to the price. The only reason not to disclose it was a PSA 7 is because you might make less money. You won't make less money because your blind car mechanic thinks it's a 7. I don't understand why both replies to me are about the word of God, I hate PSA and SGC, but I'm sorry, their opinions do heavily impact price and that is just true whether or not anyone likes it or not. Telling the truth is more ethical than not disclosing pertinent facts that might not help you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Suppose my neighbor, who is an avid card collector, thinks it is a 6. Does that need to be disclosed, too?

I realize PSA and SGC (and the other opinion sellers) want theirs to be the Word of God... But who actually anointed them?

Fair disclosure:
A grader at XYZ thinks it is a 7
I think it is a 9
The guy I bought it from called it "near Mint"
My neighbor thinks it is a 6
My car mechanic thinks it is a 10, but he wasn't wearing his glasses at the time...

My point is, why is the opinion of one more relevant than the other. Why can't a prospective buyer do HIS OWN grade assessment (a novel thought, I admit.)

We the hobby anointed them. It is what it is. The people to whom it's relevant and material, I have no doubt, far outnumber those to whom it is not, even on this Board. People can tilt at windmills and lament it all they like but it's not going to knock down the windmill.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We the hobby anointed them. It is what it is. The people to whom it's relevant and material, I have no doubt, far outnumber those to whom it is not, even on this Board. People can tilt at windmills and lament it all they like but it's not going to knock down the windmill.

If the card grades a 7, is cracked out, resubmitted, and gets a 9, does the rule of "fair disclosure" require informing the buyer the first grader decreed it was a 7 before the next grader called it a 9?

Or does the re-grade remove the ethical obligation to mention the initial grade?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If the card grades a 7, is cracked out, resubmitted, and gets a 9, does the rule of "fair disclosure" require informing the buyer the first grader decreed it was a 7 before the next grader called it a 9?

Or does the re-grade remove the ethical obligation to mention the initial grade?

Personally, I would probably disclose everything I knew, but generally my take is that unless grading history includes an outright rejection of a card for being altered, I don't think someone who does not disclose grading history is being unethical. Is it a completely consistent, airtight position? Probably not, one could do a Socratic method on it.

So ultimately it probably depends on the facts of each case.

[steve B]

An interesting question.

I'm confident enough that if it was between A and a number grade I'd trust myself over the grading company. Of the three cards I've had rejected, two were fine but had odd cuts that would have put them in A holder, One rough cust top and bottom, one short, but factory cuts. The third was obviously trimmed and I'd included it in a rush to get to the 10 cards for the special before the end of the month.

Between grades is a tougher call, I had two with what I thought were a bit low get a quick review at a show, and they pointed out a couple things I'd missed.
I also have one that the grade seems generous, but it's obvious from pictures.

The question I don't think has been asked is if you send it in and believe they got it wrong then it comes back a second time with a different grade, if you're relying on them, what makes you think the second one isn't wrong and the first right, or both are wrong?

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by steve B

An interesting question.

I'm confident enough that if it was between A and a number grade I'd trust myself over the grading company. Of the three cards I've had rejected, two were fine but had odd cuts that would have put them in A holder, One rough cust top and bottom, one short, but factory cuts. The third was obviously trimmed and I'd included it in a rush to get to the 10 cards for the special before the end of the month.

Between grades is a tougher call, I had two with what I thought were a bit low get a quick review at a show, and they pointed out a couple things I'd missed.
I also have one that the grade seems generous, but it's obvious from pictures.

The question I don't think has been asked is if you send it in and believe they got it wrong then it comes back a second time with a different grade, if you're relying on them, what makes you think the second one isn't wrong and the first right, or both are wrong?

The "opinion" that nets you the highest sale is the correct one.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Personally, I would probably disclose everything I knew, but generally my take is that unless grading history includes an outright rejection of a card for being altered, I don't think someone who does not disclose grading history is being unethical. Is it a completely consistent, airtight position? Probably not, one could do a Socratic method on it.

So ultimately it probably depends on the facts of each case.

Seriously? If you cracked it out of a 7 Holder and it came back a 9, wouldn't you simply consign it to an AH in its "9" Holder?

Would you really tell the Auction House to state in their description that this card previously graded "7" but was re-graded as a "9"? Have you ever seen an AH description that discloses that type of info? Let's be honest about this... I'd venture to say that you (and 99% of the collecting community) would simply let the 9 grade stand with no further explanation.

We all know by now that these number grades mean close to nothing. Who cares if some random idiot graded it a 7 in the past? Cards graded "Min Size" by one TPG come back with number grades from another TPG. It happens every day of the week. Cards graded as "5" a decade ago are now lucky to grade "3". The process has become meaningless, random, errant, inconsistent and corrupt to say the least.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Seriously? If you cracked it out of a 7 Holder and it came back a 9, wouldn't you simply consign it to an AH in its "9" Holder?

Would you really tell the Auction House to state in their description that this card previously graded "7" but was re-graded as a "9"? Have you ever seen an AH description that discloses that type of info? Let's be honest about this... I'd venture to say that you (and 99% of the collecting community) would simply let the 9 grade stand with no further explanation.

We all know by now that these number grades mean close to nothing. Who cares if some random idiot graded it a 7 in the past? Cards graded "Min Size" by one TPG come back with number grades from another TPG. It happens every day of the week. Cards graded as "5" a decade ago are now lucky to grade "3". The process has become meaningless, random, errant, inconsistent and corrupt to say the least.

If a card is in a 9 holder, mentioning it once graded a 7 is not going to affect the value one iota, so if one wanted to make that disclosure it's a painless one. I don't consign but as I understand it for the most part the consignor does not dictate to the auction house what to say about a card.

I don't disagree with your general statement that grading is all over the place and unreliable. But given the importance the hobby for the most part places on it, I think it's still material in many cases to disclosure questions.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Seriously? If you cracked it out of a 7 Holder and it came back a 9, wouldn't you simply consign it to an AH in its "9" Holder?

Would you really tell the Auction House to state in their description that this card previously graded "7" but was re-graded as a "9"? Have you ever seen an AH description that discloses that type of info? Let's be honest about this... I'd venture to say that you (and 99% of the collecting community) would simply let the 9 grade stand with no further explanation.

We all know by now that these number grades mean close to nothing. Who cares if some random idiot graded it a 7 in the past? Cards graded "Min Size" by one TPG come back with number grades from another TPG. It happens every day of the week. Cards graded as "5" a decade ago are now lucky to grade "3". The process has become meaningless, random, errant, inconsistent and corrupt to say the least.

The OP didn't re-sub and get a 9, though. He's thinking of cracking it out and selling it raw.

I'm not a fan of grading; however, the process isn't meaningless. It has a significant impact on price. Whether it should have this impact or not is, of course, debatable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

The OP cracked his card out of 7 holder. He didn't re-sub and get a 9, though. He's thinking of selling it raw.

I'm not a fan of grading; however, the process isn't meaningless. It has a significant impact on price. Whether it should have this impact or not is, of course, debatable.

Right. People can rant and rave and virtue signal and whatever else about the evils of grading, but collectively, the hobby values that flip enormously.

[perezfan]

Okay! I look forward to seeing a new flood of auction house (and eBay) descriptions, stating how each card graded in a past life. Should be fun to see all of the impending results from this new and innovative way of selling and auctioning sports cards!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Okay! I look forward to seeing a new flood of auction house (and eBay) descriptions, stating how each card graded in a past life. Should be fun to see all of the impending results from this new and innovative way of selling and auctioning sports cards!

Nobody, of course, is suggesting it will ever happen. The real world and the hypothetical ethical world are different animals.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right. People can rant and rave and virtue signal and whatever else about the evils of grading, but collectively, the hobby values that flip enormously.

If there is any virtue signaling in this thread, I think it is saying someone would disclose previous grades of cards subsequently cracked out.

The very purpose of cracking and re-submitting is to change reality (i.e. to change a lower grade to a higher grade.)

Nobody, and I mean nobody, would disclose a card of theirs, residing in a 9 holder, had previously been graded lower.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If there is any virtue signaling in this thread, I think it is saying someone would disclose previous grades of cards subsequently cracked out.

The very purpose of cracking and re-submitting is to change reality (i.e. to change a lower grade to a higher grade.)

Nobody, and I mean nobody, would disclose a card of theirs, residing in a 9 holder, had previously been graded lower.

It would have zero effect on price if they did. People are buying the 9 flip, not the mint qualities of the card.

[Eric72]

This thread began with the OP mentioning a graded 7 that he was thinking of cracking and selling raw.

The conversation seems to have morphed into crack-and-resub-into-a-9.

Those are two very different scenarios, in my opinion.

[Beercan collector]

PSA9s values are through the roof because of the registry - even if you think your raw card is mint it’s not gonna bring 1/10 of the price of a PSA9.
Steve mentioned it’s a special card - Call me paranoid but I’m convinced PSA intentionally under grades “special cards” with hopes of resubmission.
The game to play is resubmit and hope for an eight. Ugh

[tycobb]

65 replies in can we see this special card ?


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[icurnmedic]

Well unless you are selling to the buyer sight unseen, it is not the sellers job to educate the buyer. Particularly if the grade in question is indeed questionable.

On this very site, we have seen countless graded cards , that many here consider over or under graded.

TPG opinions weigh very heavily, but are not always accurate.

Ethically however, probably just disclose what is relevant and let the buyer decide.

As mentioned, why would anyone purchase a 4-5 figure card that wasn’t graded already.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by icurnmedic

As mentioned, why would anyone purchase a 4-5 figure card that wasn’t graded already.

For the same reason that the OP bought it raw! Money. All about the money.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Eric72

This thread began with the OP mentioning a graded 7 that he was thinking of cracking and selling raw.

The conversation seems to have morphed into crack-and-resub-into-a-9.

Those are two very different scenarios, in my opinion.

Exactly. How did this get turned around to something so extremely different?