Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Paul- please don't kick out McCarthy until my auction ends. Thank you

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Posted By: Bob

Johnny Evers out??? Unbelievable. The Human Crab was a helluva player and one of the best minds in the game in the early 1900's. Never mind that he helped drive the Cubs to their world championships, he was the force behind the Miracle Braves WS year in 1914. A great fielder, very good hitter and even though by all accounts he was a pain in the ass to be around, a deserving HOFer. He and Cocky Collins and Nap Lajoie were arguably the best 3 second sackers of the first 25 years of the 20th century.

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Posted By: peter chao

Chris, Guys,

Even if 3 prewar guys were going to get kicked out of the Hall, that doesn't mean the Veteran's Committee shouldn't be nominating new Hall of Famers. This new Veteran's Committee has overreacted to the nomination of Bill Mazeroski into the Hall. For the last 6 years they have nominated nobody in 3 elections.

It's pathetic. You can't tell me guys like Hodges, Santo, Kaat and Joe Torre aren't deserving. Joe Torre should really go in as a catcher, but some day he could be equally deserving as a manager.

Peter

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Posted By: Paul

I don't think the new committee has overreacted. What has happened is that the entire structure of the committee has changed. The old committee was a group of 12 guys who met together. They could decide AS A GROUP what to do. If they thought three guys should get in one year and zero guys the next, they could do that. More importantly, if one persuasive member of the committee felt that George Kelly belonged, he could persuade his colleagues in person, and perhaps even offer to support Rube Marquard in exchange.

The new committee does not meet together. They don't decide anything as a group. They vote as 90 or so independent people. This makes it much harder to vote anybody in, even without a conscious decision by all 90 members to make election harder. It's just the nature of the system. 90 people won't agree on anything unless they all meet together and come up with a plan of whose turn it is this year.

Actually, I shouldn't say that they won't agree on anything. They'd vote in Ruth, Mays, etc. But we are now dealing with candidates who are right on the borderline. Some may be deserving, but they are still on the borderline. And to get 90 people to agree on which borderline candidate to elect this year without coordinating their votes in advance is real tough.

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Posted By: MikeW

I felt the need to interject that Addie Joss had exceptional numbers for ANY era. Sandy Koufax did as well - but 60's baseball was deadball too. I think both Joss and Koufax deserve to be there because, despite them pitching in deadball eras... they were one of the best pitchers in it. Just because a player has big offensive stats in a juiced era or great pitching stats in a dead era doesn't mean they aren't great. Now, if they had crappy stats - it probably means they are crappy players.

Also, the Joss not being elected until 60 years post his death... that statement is a little misleading because we all know that NOBODY was elected until 1939 anyhow. That is nearly 30 years of not even being considered.

All that said... I too agree the Hall is oversaturated, but Joss would not be in my hypothetical discussion on one of the members to be tossed.

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Posted By: peter chao

Paul,

With the current Veteran's Committee it's pretty clear that somebody like Addie Joss would never be nominated. You would think that because they only vote every two years that they would work harder towards developing some type of consensus instead of voting in a vacuum.

Peter

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The disquiet I have with the current veterans committee, which I think many share, is that many of the voters are ignorant when it comes to the history of the game. I've met a number of HOFers. Some are, shall we say, less than striking in the brains dept. I'd venture to say that most of us know more about baseball history than most of the HOFers who vote on the nominees. The old system was cronyist, but it had the advantage of including people who cared about the result and were interested enough to learn and participate. The new system doesn't ensure that outcome at all.

I still think there needs to be a veterans system. Many of us could name multiple players from various eras who should be in the Hall of Fame. Count Mullane comes right to mind, as would several of the guys on the ballot this year who didn't make it.

I think the Academy Awards for the less "sexy" categories are decided on a better approach. Any Academy member can vote for best picture, etc., but if they want to vote for documentary or foreign film, they have to go to a special screening to become eligible to vote. In that way, the people who are not interested in the category aren't allowed to vote on it just because there is a box on the ballot. Seems to me that the vote for the veterans committee should be limited to HOF writers, sportscasters, executives, and a group of volunteer players. That way you get the real observers of the game and the players who are interested enough to volunteer and to learn the history, instead of anyone who is alive.

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Posted By: Mike

1.Babe Ruth
2.Hank Aaron
3.Ted Williams

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Posted By: peter chao

Mike,

Barry would probably get rid of Hammerin Hank and Teddy Ballgame but probably keep the Babe.

Peter

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think if you were rating players purely on the basis of numbers, Hank could arguably be #1 all-time. So no, Hank stays. He's in the pantheon. Williams too!

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Posted By: jay behrens

Cobb - because he was a racists and suspected murderer

Wagner - cuz he bow legged. Can't have those types in there either

Mathewson - you aren't supposed to be smart AND a ball player

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Here are the most questionable ones to me:
Pioneers/19th Century (?) - M. Bulkley (really it was Hulbert who did what Bulkely was originally credited with) Hulbert finally got in a few years ago.
Candy Cummings (almost certainly did NOT invent the curve ball) his stats are lame too.
Tommy McCarthy -- there are many better 19th century outfielders not in the HOF (e.g. Tiernan, Ryan, Stovey, O'Neil, Browning etc)
20th cent. players: in no real order:
Lindstrom, Marquard, Haines, Hafey, Geo. Kelley, Chesbro (1 great year), Bancroft, Stonewall Jackson, R. Ferrell (his brother was a better candidate), Schalk (not throwing the 1919 series is not a good reason and his stats are quite weak); Pennock.

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Posted By: Mark Lutz

Misunderestimated,

You show great discernment in your list---but I'm not so sure about a couple 20th century names. First, without the Knight of Kennet Square, do the Yankees win all those pennants and series games? He won some classic games for them. Besides, the Writers put him in---he is off limits. In addition, it seems to me that the Giants of 1921-24 must have had a few Hall of Fame calibre players on them---how else would they set the record for consecutive National League pennants? so if you boot out Beauty Bancroft and George Kelly--those teams would have only 2 hall of famers: Youngs and a young Frisch. That doesn't seem right. Maybe they should put in a few more, like Heine Groh, Irish Meusel, and Artie Nehf.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I guess I'm not all that keen on putting players in the HOF for what their teams accomplished. All the players you mentioned were certainly good but if you check their stats its difficult to justify them in the HOF. The Giants are grossly over-represented because the Fordam Flash basically ruling the Vet. Committe and put it lots of guys he played with. ALos I think Groh was probably better than some of the ones who did get in (at least career wise). I'm probably a bit hard on Pennock. But he pitched for some of the best hitting teams ever I don't think he made that big a difference. If you examine his pitching numbers next to the rest of the HOF pitchers they are inadequate. He wasn't ever that dominant winning 20 games only twice and his lifetime numbers don't make it up his lifetime ERA was barely better than the league average. He was voted into the HOF in 1948 -- soon after his untimely death. Now that I think of it I guess Chief Bender doesn't really belong either.

Alot of what ij ust wrote applies to the famous cubs troika as well, I guess. However,I think Evers and Chance have more to recommend them than simply their place on the Cubs. Also the hitting numbers in the 1900's were generally much weaker than the 1920's. And the Cubs 1906-10 were probably better (for their time) than the Giants of the early 1920's.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Get a hold on yourselves, you've already gotten rid of about a third of the HOF.

Peter

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Easy for me to name 3.

1. Kirby Puckett

2. Gary Carter

3. Effa Manley (but I'd change that for a pre-emptive boot for Pete Rose).



Sorry, Jay, I didn't read the question very well.... KP and GC aren't pre WW2. and EM wasn't a player. But those 3 belong out WAY BEFORE anyone starts booting out pre WW2 players. I got so excited about booting folks out that I couldn't read.

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Posted By: Sean Coe

Three that should never have been voted in imo: Hafey, Ferell, Marquard.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I didn't know Puckett and Carter played before WW2. Guess I need to add them to my list players I need for my player set.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: howard

Johnny Evers was a fine player but to make a HOF case for him you have to give him too much credit for intagibles such as being smart or fiery or a team leader. Was he THE driving force behind the Miracle Braves in 1914? I don't think so. I doubt he was responsible for Dick Rudolph and Bill James having seasons way beyond their career norms. They also had Rabbit Maranville at SS who also has been credited with being the driving force behind the team. Yes, Evers won the MVP (with Maranville a close second and Ruldoph and James not far behind) but there are plenty of players who won the award that either did not deserve them or were not HOF caliber players or both (O'Farrell and Peckinpaugh come to mind).

The fact that he and Tinker and Chance were all elected in the same year tells me that if a certain poem had never been written Evers never would have gotten in the Hall.

I don't think he is the worst of the players in the HOF, by the way. I think I would go with Lloyd Waner.

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Posted By: Mark L

If I had to expel 3 I suppose I'd pick Ferrell, Hafey and Lindstrom. From what I've read, contemporary witnesses agreed that Evers was the veteran leader of the Miracle Braves. When both he and James were sidelined for part of the season in 1915, there were no more miracles. As for the poem, it may have been the driving force at the time but I still think that a solid case could be made for both Evers and Chance. But poetry can't be the only cause of their celebrity. Yeats and Auden could have written volumes about other Cub double play combinations, say, Charlie Hollocher, Zeb Terry, and Fred Merkle, and it wouldn't put them any of them any closer to Cooperstown.

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Posted By: howard

It's not remarkable that Evers was considered the veteran leader of the team as he was their oldest player. But that is not the same thing as driving a team to the pennant. The value of veteran leadership is debatable. Joe Girardi and Darren Erstad are credited by some as being veteran leaders of championship teams. In my opinion this does not make them great it makes them overrated.

Yes, Hollocher, Terry and Merkle would likely not be HOFers if a poem had been written of them. But I'd bet that if Harry Steinfeldt was included in the poem he would be in the Hall today with Tinker, Evers and Chance.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

To excluded Joss because he died before his 10th year would be cruel. When Williams was shot down in Korea, if he had been killed or disabled, would he be excluded because he had played only 9-1/2 years? 39,40,41,42,46,47,48,49, 1/2 of 50 & 51. Joss is an upper tier HOF member. There are however many marginal members who had long somewhat above average careers and piled up lots of stats against somewhat diluted tallent, who really do not belong in the HOF. I think that there should be a review process, 30 to 50 years after election, to confirm membership in the Hall of Fame or movement to a "Hall of Achievement".

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Published: New York Evening Mail (July 10, 1910)

These are the saddest of possible words:
"Tinker to Evers to Chance."
Trio of bear cubs, and fleeter than birds,
Tinker and Evers and Chance.
Ruthlessly pricking our gonfalon bubble,
Making a Giant hit into a double-
Words that are heavy with nothing but trouble:
"Tinker to Evers to Chance."



Here's something to strengthen the Harry Steinfeldt case for the HOF:

These are the saddest of possible words:
"Tinker or Steinfeldt to Evers to Chance ."
Quad of bear cubs, and fleeter than birds,
Tinker or Steinfeldt and Evers and Chance.
Ruthlessly pricking our gonfalon bubble,
Making a Giant hit into a double-
Words that are heavy with nothing but trouble:
"Tinker or Steinfeldt to Evers to Chance."

Lets get ole Harry inducted now....

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Posted By: barrysloate

What on earth does "Ruthlessly pricking our gonfalon bubble" mean?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Addie's numbers were exceptional. As someone mentioned, it is unfair to say he wasn't elected to the Hall until 68 years after his career was over. Not only did the Hall not exist for a good chunk of that time, but when it was created, the rules required 10 years of service to be eligible---that is, until the rules were changed in late 1977. Addie went in the next year, his first year of eligibility.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Clemente was another player who got special consideration, not having to wait the required five years to get in.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

look at the hair on the T206; you can't kick out Batman.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Barry,

From Wikipedia:

See also Khorugv, sometimes translated as Gonfalon

In Anglophone tradition it is a seldom-used word, kept alive by baseball historians due to its presence in a poem called Baseball's Sad Lexicon.

The poem was written by Franklin Pierce Adams, a New York Giants fan and sportswriter for the New York Evening Mail. The poem first appeared in the July 18, 1910, edition of the paper. It was about the 1908 pennant race in which the Chicago Cubs won the National League pennant, beating out the Giants in dramatic fashion after a "boneheaded" play by Fred Merkle. The poem contains this phrase...

Ruthlessly pricking our gonfalon bubble

...which in plain English means that the Chicago Cubs of that year continually spoiled the Giants' chances (or "burst their bubble" as people say nowadays) for the pennant which is emblematic of the league championship.

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Posted By: peter chao

Pete, Todd

I disagree with both of you. Addie Joss should not be in the Hall. His numbers were not exceptional for the times. Yes, he won 20 games several times, but that was during the time there were 30 game winners. Also, his ERA was low, but that was during the dead ball era when everybody's ERA was low.

Not comparable to Sandy Koufax at all. Sandy's numbers were exceptional for his era. Not only that the Dodgers were winners. Without Sandy and Don Drysdale, the Dodgers would have been in the second division.

Let's say that Nolan Ryan pitched only the first ten years of his career and then got injured because of a line drive to the pitcher's mound. Would he have been a Hall of Famer. Probably not. In the same way Addie Joss is not a HOF.

Peter

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Posted By: peter chao

Pete, Todd

I disagree with both of you. Addie Joss should not be in the Hall. His numbers were not exceptional for the times. Yes, he won 20 games several times, but that was during the time there were 30 game winners. Also, his ERA was low, but that was during the dead ball era when everybody's ERA was low.

Not comparable to Sandy Koufax at all. Sandy's numbers were exceptional for his era. Not only that the Dodgers were winners. Without Sandy and Don Drysdale, the Dodgers would have been in the second division.

Let's say that Nolan Ryan pitched only the first ten years of his career and then got injured because of a line drive to the pitcher's mound. Would he have been a Hall of Famer. Probably not. In the same way Addie Joss is not a HOF.

Peter

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Posted By: howard

Good one, Judge!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Fred. I looked up "gonfalon" in my Webster's and it wasn't listed. It's as antiquated as "whilst".

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Posted By: Anonymous

Joss belongs -- or if he doesn't about 15 other pitchers have to go too.

He led the league in ERA twice and wins once and his lifetime era 1.89 is the 2nd best ever. Even adjusted for his era his ERA is the 12th best. I would rate him as a pitcher with a short but great career behind Koufax but ahead of Dizzy Dean -- I would also rate Caruthers ahead of Dean. Nolan Ryan conversely is a Hall of Famer based on some rather staggering lifetime numbers put up over an exceptionally long career -- especially strikeouts.

Joss is more deserving than several Pitchers(among others): Chesbro, Bender, Marquard, Haines, Pennock and Hoyt from the pre-war period.

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Posted By: Anonymous

For the statheads. Note that Joss has the top W+H/IP all-time (Walks plus Hits allowed per-inning) -- one of the stats currently in vogue.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jossad01.shtml

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Posted By: NickM

Dave Bancroft, Rick Ferrell, Chick Hafey, Waite Hoyt, Travis Jackson, Rube Marquard, Herb Pennock, and Joe Tinker all go.

Nick

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Posted By: Hal

I looked this up in Wikipedia. A gonfalon is a type of pennant. The Wikipedia article explains that the phrase means that the Cubs continually spoiled the Giants' chances (burst their bubble) for the pennant.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Dizzy Dean is barely Hall of Fame material, but he did have that monster 1934 season so he's in. But Addie Joss never had that overwhelming season or seasons he should be out.

Peter

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I wanted to qualify my prior statement about Dizzy Dean's monster 1934 season. Dizzy as a member of the Gas House Gang won 30 games in that year.

My personal bias is that if a ballplayer has a short career and make it into the Hall of Fame, he better have a couple of seasons where he absolutely is the best. For example Dizzy Dean in 1934 and 1935. Or Sand Koufax for a 5 year period.

For a lengthy career it isn't that important to have monster seasons, it's possible to get in when you simply hit the cumulative numbers. For instance, Nolan Ryan and Phil Niekro.

Peter

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Posted By: Jason L

the 8 umpires that are in the HOF.
There is no way that anyone who is supposed to be invisible on the field (and have no impact on the game as it is played) should be enshrined in the HOF.
makes no sense.
boot them all out.


that's my just 4 cents (my input is in nominal terms, not adjusted for inflation)

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

In the Politics of Glory, Bill James brings up that the movement to get Addie Joss into the Hall of Fame didn't start in earnest until after Dizzy Dean got in. This makes sense in a way because Dizzy also had a short career and people started looking twice at Addie's career.

However, through the politics of the Veteran's Committee the rules were changed for Joss so that he could get around the 10 year requirement. It should have never happened, you should never bend the rules to allow a borderline candidate to get in it makes no sense. It makes sense to bend the rules for an exceptional candidate like Roberto Clemente, but not for a borderline candidate.

Addie Joss in his time was not an exceptional pitcher whereas Dizzy Dean was in his time.

Peter

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Peter,

I'm glad you brought up Bill James' book. It's a must-read for anyone who believes that induction into the Hall of Fame is a true measure of a player's greatness ... James, by the way, believes Minnie Minoso is the most deserving eligible player not in the HOF ... he also believes there is no evidence Pete Rose bet on his own games, but that's another story ...

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Peter,

With all due respect, do you really believe that Addie Joss was not exceptional? His lifetime ERA isn't something that was made up.

Do you think that Dizzy Dean is more deserving that Addie Joss?

Dean had a few good seasons strung together, I wouldn't count his 20-18 season as dominating. Dean was to the word exceptional at his best as Denny McClain was to the word exceptional in his prime. I don't see people beating down the doors to have Denny enshrined. Look at Denny's lifetime stats, he wasn't that bad and he kind of paralleled Dizzy.

Denny was the last 30 game winner in either NL or AL. The last person to win 30 games before Denny was Dizzy Dean (34 years before). In the 34 years before Dizzy won thirty games there were no less than 14 seasons where the league leader won 30 games and that doesn't count the also rans that won 30 games. Dizzy's 30 game season, although spectacular, was not exceptional. If you take away his 30-7 season Dizzy doesn't stand a chance for the HOF. Take away his 30-7 season and the lifetime win% drops from .644 to .612 (not bad, but Denny had a lifetime win% of .590).

I'm not trying to make a case for Denny McClain I'm just using him as an example. Denny was good in his day though. Dizzy was pretty good in his prime and so was Addie Joss.

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Posted By: peter chao

Fred,

I do think Dizzy Dean is more deserving than Addie Joss, perhaps not by much but still enough to warrant entrance into the Hall of Fame. Also at the same time Addie Joss was good but not good enough to warrant the Hall of Fame to bend their rules.

Denny McLain will never get serious consideration because his lifetime numbers are inadequate and also unlikely to fulfill the moral character standard.

Peter

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Posted By: George Dreher

Someone in this thread suggested that Joe Sewell doesn't belong in the Hall. My only question is:

When will we see someone go an entire season and strikeout a total of 3 times again? He did that twice. If I'm not mistaken he also had a season when he only struck out 7 times. The guy went 115 games without a strikeout. He played 14 years with over 7000 at bats and only struck out a total of 114 times in his entire career.
How many times does Ichiro strike out a season? More than 50 I'm sure.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Maybe I'm the only one with this take: there seems to be something very mean spirited about trying to figure out who should be thrown out of the Hall of Fame. I'd rather consider the question of who could be added. By the way, I think Dizzy Dean is in partly because of his work doing his radio show and baseball play-by-play: a loveable ambassador of the game.

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Posted By: howard

The movie version of Dean's life, "The spirit of St. Louis", was released in 1952 and the following year he was elected to the Hall of Fame. Perhaps if "The Addie Joss Story" had been made ten or twenty years after his death Joss would have had an easier time with the voters.

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Posted By: howard

Is Wilbert Robinson in as a player or manager? Either way I think his case is pretty weak.