Mastro or Memory Lane

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Posted By: JimB

If Hal was not the bidder of record, and the bidder of record was not the consignor, then Mastro is free of liability for wrongdoing. I understand what you are getting at Jeff, but I don't see how an auction company can prevent someone from having a friend bid for them.

And actually, if they are willing to swallow the BP and buy it back, I don't really have a problem with that. If I think an item of mine that I consigned is worth 10k and minutes before it is to close, it is still at 3k, if I am willing to pay the 20% BP, what is the problem? It may not be particularly smart to do that and immediately consign it to another auction house, but I don't think it is morally objectionable.
JimB

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

AndyC88,

If in fact the lots were paid for and a check sent to the consignor, how does this hide assets from outside legal proceedings?

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Posted By: CN

MR. MINT!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

What if the lots were never paid for? What if no check was ever sent in to pay for the lots?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

If that's the case then we have problems, but if you don't have evidence of that Jeff then why bring it up? There really is NOTHING that Mastro can do if a consignor has a buddy bid on one of his lots.

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Posted By: JimB

Unless there is evidence that this happened and that Mastro knew about it, it is a bit wreckless to insinuate on a public forum that they did.
JimB

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Doug,

I am not ignoring you. I am busy and you conveniently misrepresented that I said lets get together for breakfast or lunch.

Call my secretary and get on my schedule for tomorrow and I will speak with you.

Jim

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Posted By: Rob D.

Call my secretary and get on my schedule for tomorrow and I will speak with you.

Simply priceless.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Rob,

Quoting almost exactly the words Doug said to me--I couldn't agree more.

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Posted By: Doug Allen

Jim.

I am sorry if I missunderstood. Below is the string of emails. I deleted your email address in respect of your privacy.

In summary:
I emailed you Tuesday after you posted on the Board that you would be calling me letting you know I would be heading to NYC in case you tried to call (see Tueday Feb 12th p.m. email below)You followed up stating "if you are in NYC I will buy you breakfast or lunch." (Tues Febuary 13th a.m. email below). I emailed you back saying give me a call Thursday pm and we can set it up (Wednesday February 14th a.m. email below).

My memory is sometimes foggy but I have to tell you when I am offered a free breakfast or dinner I rarely forget ;->

Just so we are clear I will not be calling your secretary but will make myself available to answer any questions you may have. She is welcome to call me to set up a mutually agreeable time.

Regards,
Doug



-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Allen
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:43 AM
To: email deleted
Subject: RE: Follow-up

That will probably work....call me Thursday pm and we can set it up. Doug

From: email deleted
To: "Doug Allen" <dallen@mastroauctions.com>
Sent: 2/12/2008 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Follow-up

Doug,

I will take you up on your offer--it has been a busy two days at work and I am out of town tomorrow and Thursday--maybe Friday--if you are in NYC I will buy you breakfast or lunch.

Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Allen <dallen@mastroauctions.com>
To: email deleted
Sent: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 6:29 pm
Subject: Follow-up

Jim,

Just confirming I never heard back from you. I am heading out to NYC for the rest of the week.

Regards,
Doug

Doug Allen
President & COO
Mastro Auctions Inc.
7900 S. Madison Street
Burr Ridge, IL 60527
p: 630-472-1200
m: 630-336-6650

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Doug,

Yup--I got busy.

As I said, call me or my secretary and I will speak with you.

Jim

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Doug-

email sent.

regards,
Michael Sarno

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

I don't have a dog in the fight, but you're CONSTANTLY busting Doug's chops here and HE is supposed to call YOU? Sounds like you don't want resolution, just to continue busting. If the crusade is that near and dear to you, pick up the phone.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

No and thats my point. Doug runs the leading auction house in the business. He has made some statements that deserve further elaboration. I have know personal issue with Doug. I simply want to know his company's policies and if they have changed. If you call that busting his chops then we disagree.

I think he should publicly answer these questions. If you simply don't care if he takes creases out of cards fine--I think a lot of collectors do and would rather hear from him directly that have me come back on and say what he said over the phone.

Jim

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim, pardon my interruption, but if you don't care whether the cards you bought in the past that now reside in your registry sets had creases taken out of them then why do you care if future cards you purchase have creases removed?

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Posted By: Cobby33

At this rate, neither will happen (responding to second to last post).

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

I don't believe in card alteration and I think its wrong--from what others have said maybe more than just wrong.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dear Anonymous,

You don't care about card alteration and what the leading auction house does to its cards?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim, I think it is now a forgone conclusion that card tampering will be around as long as people are willing to pay huge sums for small increments in a grading scale. The best you can hope for is that the graders keep pace with the crooks. Doug has said that Mastro no longer takes out creases....what more do you want?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

I missed that. I would like him to say what you just said he said. Simply admit he did what he already said he did, estimate how many cards he might have directed his staff to alter and state that he does not do this anymore. Leon said he told him he doesn't do it any more but I have never seem him write that he stopped taking outy creases--have you?

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...................

as my 2 year old says........nite nite..........

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Posted By: Jim VB

<<Leon said he told him he doesn't do it any more but I have never seem him write that he stopped taking outy creases--have you?>>

Good avenue of attack. Next ask him if he has stopped beating his wife.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jim VB,

He said he did take creases out. Leon told us he told him he stopped. I would like to hear from him if this is true. Are you on the Mastronet payroll?

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Posted By: Jim VB

No, Jim. I'm not on Mastro's payroll. I retired from my "day job" 12 years ago at the age of 40.

I'm just frustrated with the hijacking of another poster's thread in which he asked a legitimate question. If you want to launch a crusade against Mastro, have at it. On your own thread.

Tony III asked advice on selecting an auction house. He deserves honest answers without having to wade through a score of posts that have been done before.

In essence, I agree with you. Doug should answer publicly. You have enough clout to get him to talk to you and he will do so with the understanding that what he says will be reported here, by you. But this isn't the correct thread.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim VB, Doug answered the question last year on this forum. I'm not sure why Jim C wants to keep asking the same question over and over.

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Posted By: Jim VB

<<I'm not sure why Jim C wants to keep asking the same question over and over.>>

Clearly, he didn't like and/or believe the answer. I tried this a lot when my kids were little. (It's not a really effective method.)

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Posted By: Louis Bollman

First, in the intrest of full disclosure, I used to work for MastroNet / Mastro Auctions from 1998-2002 (end of 98 to the end of 02). And have not always had the best relations with some at Mastro's and at other times got along great with everyone there. Kind of like a big family; you might, at times, have the greatest contempt for your siblings but eventually you get over it. Since I no longer have any affiliation with Mastro's, in fact I am currently consulting for a competing auction house (I won't attempt to highjack the thread by posting the auction house name in this thread for promotional purposes) so I have nothing to gain by jumping to their defense. While employed by Mastro's I never witnessed any type of "protection" being offered to a consignor. On the contrary, I have personally seen some premium consignements lost due to the company policy of making it a "true" auction without hidden reserves.

This is an attempt at getting this thread back on track to an honest question. These are my limited observations about where to sell / auction your material.

1) All (in my experience) dealers and auction houses do have customers that are unique to their buisiness. When I hired on at Mastro's they had a mailing / customer /potential customer list of well over 10,000 names while I, on the other hand, had a relatively small customer list of under 1,000 names. When we merged lists 80% of my customers were not on their list. Furthermore, when auction houses sell a variety of different collectibles (i.e. sports, comics, political, etc.) you will inevitably intrest some of your customers from one area to another. I can't imagine a collector of something, not sports related, not wanting a Ty Cobb card or a Babe Ruth ball. So often times auction companies that handle a variety of different collectibles can bring more buyers to the table.

2) Auctions are material driven. Regardless of how a collector (for the most part) feels about an auction house, that collector will likely bid if what they are looking for is only available in an auction that they would prefer to avoid for whatever reason. If you have a special piece up for auction, the buyers will find it.

3) Collectors often times feel more comfortable bidding or bidding higher than normal if the auctioneer or auction staff has more in depth knowledge of what they are interested in. Since many in the business got into the business as a result of being collectors first it would stand to reason that rare display pieces, pins, and photos will sell for more in Mastro's if they get a chance to talk to Bill Mastro personally; collectors of Old Judge and other 19th century cards may feel more comfortable talking about a potential purchase with Barry since it has been a strong area of interest for him for many years, etc. Because of this, personal relationships with dealers / auction houses that you as a consignor or buyer are comfortable with are very important. If you sense someone trying a "hard-sell" technique on you call someone else you trust whether it be a fellow collector or another dealer for their opinion.

4) The amount that an auction company spends on advertising is often irrelevant. Nearly all of the advertisements are geared toward obtaining consignments. Even when they preview upcoming auctions, it is in order to show potential consignors how the auction house is willing to promote future consignments. I'm not saying that the advertisements don't produce a few more bids in an auction but, again, the auctions are material driven and the overwhelming majority of collectors looking for a particular item will find the auction whether they see an ad or not.

5) Look at any potential auction company's prior catalogs / auctions and decide for yourself if that company's auction will compliment your consignment to your satisfaction.

I am sorry if this post seems long-winded. For many on this board I haven't written anything that would change the way that you sell or consign. For those that do not sell or consign often these are all things that you should seriously consider before signing "The Contract"; you only get to sell it once, there aren't any "do overers". Even if you feel that the item that you have already consigned isn't going for what you hoped for, having one of your "friends" shill bid the item to the point of winning your consignment back is a lousy idea. Is that item going to sell for enough more in another auction to make up for the seller's commission (0-15%) and the buyers premium (15-20%)that you'll be on the hook for if you buy it back?....Probably not.

Hope this helps,

Louis Bollman

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jim VB,

Thank you for agreeing with me--Doug should answer this question publicly--

Dan--uh, not really--thats what Al would like to have you believe but it opens up a whole host of other questions that demand an answer. If knowing that this was PSA and SGC's policy why did he direct his people to take creases out of cards in the first place....and how many cards did he knowingly direct to being altered before he "changed" the company's policy?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Louis- those were some excellent insights, and I agree with everything you said. Thanks for posting.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Good post Louis--I agree with all points except for number two--you underestimate the people who will not deal mwith certain auction houses they believe to be unethical.

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Posted By: SC

"Even if you feel that the item that you have already consigned isn't going for what you hoped for, having one of your "friends" shill bid the item to the point of winning your consignment back is a lousy idea. Is that item going to sell for enough more in another auction to make up for the seller's commission (0-15%) and the buyers premium (15-20%)that you'll be on the hook for if you buy it back?....Probably not."

This would be the case if the only items shilled were the ones bought back. But as we often know, from eBay as well as other examples, the benefit can be in having that bid topped by the current hi bidder. Easiest example:

10 items currently bid to $1000 ea.

Consignor (through an intermediary) tops all 10 items to $1100.

Other bidders top 8 of 10 items to $1210. Consignor buys back two of them.

Consignor sees 8 items sell for an extra $1680, less 10% seller's fee, nets $1412. Consignor loses 25% on two items @ $1100 - total loss $550.


I can clearly see the financial benefit in pushing your own consignments in an auction. However, as long as the auction house isn't allowing direct consignor bids, or cutting side deals - what more can you ask? Whether you think they are or are not, or the degree to which they police it, is a question you have to determine for your own comfort.

The best example is an auction house receiving bids from a single bidder on five different items, all the same consignor's item, and all varied enough that it is unlikely a single bidder would pick out these exact lots (vs. someone bidding on all T206s that happened to be consigned by the same person). _I would ask the auction houses - do you have any abilities to track such a suspect circumstance? Do you care?_

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Posted By: Jim VB

<<Thank you for agreeing with me--Doug should answer this question publicly-->>

Being relatively new to this board, I was unaware that Doug HAD answered these questions previously.

Now, do you agree with me, that hijacking someone else's thread is not the proper way to go about getting the answers you still seek?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

JimVB,

Yes although thread was already going a different direction with dialogue with Jeff and Doug.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

What if a shill bidder "wins" an auction on a card where there was no consignment fee and never pays for the card, but then the consignor wants the card back? Then the consignor doesn't seem to be out anything except a little time.

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Posted By: JK

Good point Dan.

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Posted By: barrysloate

By reneging the shill bidder could be subject to a lawsuit. If the sum is large enough, the auction house may choose to go after him.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Does the auction house have the right to hold on to the card(s) while they were pursuing judgment against the shill bidder? What if the consignor wanted the cards back ASAP?

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

In SC's example if only 4 of 10 shill bids are topped consignor nets $756 (90% of $840) and loses $1650 (25% of $6600). Pretty risky strategy.

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Posted By: JK

With respect to a lawsuit, it seems to me that if a consignor and a friend conspired to shill an auction and the shill bidder refused to pay, it would be highly unlikely that there would be a lawsuit. Before I explain why, I have not reviewed the bidder's agreement with the auction house - so I dont have all the terms in front of me to state this with certainty. That said, in reality, the auction company is only going after the bp. Rarely, if ever, is a 15 or 20% bp going to be enough to justify the expense of a lawsuit. A 10k item is still only going to have a 2k bp - hardly worth the expense of a lawsuit in my opinion. Heck, unless you have collection attorney's working on percentages of your recovery, even a 20k bp is going to be hard to recover without fees eating into most of the recovery. Now, if there were a way to recover attorney's fees, perhaps lawsuits do become more of a possibility.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Josh- in 1988 I sold a T206 Wagner at a live public auction in NYC. The day after the auction the winning bidder called and said he decided not to honor his purchase.

I retained a lawyer, we won the case, and he ended up paying in full for the card. Sometimes a reneger will get sued.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Do you still have his number?

I will gladly reimburse him the full amount he paid in 1988 for that Honus Wagner card.

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Posted By: barrysloate

He paid about 18K for it, and it now resides in a PSA 1 holder. It is easily recognizable as the upper left corner is missing. Leland's auctioned it about five years ago. I guess I would let him off the hook and take it back too.

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Posted By: JK

Barry - of course, you had to give the bidder the card after he paid. Now what would have happened if your consignor, who was in on the shill, had demanded the card back as soon as you notified him that the bidder refused to pay? Ive never seen a consignment contract, but unless it gives you the right to retain the card while you seek legal action, I suspect you would have had a more difficult time pursuing the matter.

Moreover, most sales are not 100k wagners. I'd say one would have to be pretty stupid to risk being responsible for the bp on such an expensive card. The average 5-10k lot isnt going to be worth suing over.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Josh- the card wasn't consigned to me. I owned it, and I gave it to Phillips Auctions to sell. So if for some reason we couldn't collect I just would have kept it.

Edited to add most items aren't worth suing over. It's just easier to reoffer the card another time.