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#101
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
if this is an underprint, how can anyone possibly explain how it happened? if we are to assume that kevin is right |
#102
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: david
kevin |
#103
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Joann
Well this is a disappointment - getting up in the morning to find that no new 0's have been added to the BIN price. Boooooring. Yawn. |
#104
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: barrysloate
Deleted as I decided my post was not appropriate. |
#105
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Steve
The fact that the seller is asking 150K is not a reflection of what he feels the piece is worth; he is just showing his anger and contempt to the board for questioning his integrity. |
#106
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Steve
He needs to raise his shipping price. |
#107
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
After reading through as much of this as I could... |
#108
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Marty Ogelvie
A simple case of which came first... 'chicken or the egg' If the value of this card is not substantially increased by either, then does it really matter which came first? Of course if its just a matter of PROVING that this seller is a FRAUD, then by all means, press on.. It seems most everyone has a fairly high opinion of Kevin and Kevin says its legit.. can't that be enough?? It is for me..
martyOgelvie |
#109
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
I understand there's bad blood with the seller, but I don't think the seller should have any bearing on people's judgement on this card. If anything, the seller has some pretty exceptional knowledge of the hobby. |
#110
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Red
When the top surface was peeled off the 1952 Bowman and T206 cards above did the lower layers show any ink from bleed through? I doubt it because ink applied in a printing process is going to behave and look different than ink applied from a watery stamp that's allowed to soak in and stain the card. The ink from the stamp isn't much different than if you soaked the card in grape juice. You'll have a purple T206 with the red printed ink looking like it's floating on the surface. |
#111
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Shawn Chambers
I am still not swayed by Kevin's photos. I have many paper items at home (CD inserts come to mind) where red ink has a more 3-D effect than other colors (probably one of the reasons it is used in 3-D glasses! |
#112
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: DD
Let's say for a moment that the other stamp was applied first. And..... An interesting anamoly, for which nothing plausible can be concluded. |
#113
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Joe D.
I have yet to see a compelling argument -- either words or photos -- for this to be considered an underprint (sorry Kevin). None. |
#114
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Anonymous
look at the cards at an angle under magnification and you'll see that the original T206 printing looks like it's sitting on top of whatever stamp was there, just like the photo above shows. The stamps were made with a thin water based ink that soaks into the card as opposed to the original T206 printing that's sitting on top of the card. |
#115
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: robert a
Here's my opinion without commenting on what the card should be worth or sold for and without commenting on whether or not it's a stamp/underprint/overprint: |
#116
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Dave F
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#117
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Joe D.
Dave, |
#118
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jerry Hrechka
I don't have the knowledge to add anything to this thread, but this is exactly why I lurk here and read the threads. Always something new to learn. |
#119
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Tim asked above what would it take for me to believe this is an "underprint." I suppose Joe D's opinion would do it for me. And some rational explanation as to how a single print would have been perfectly placed on a large, blank sheet of cardboard prior to it being run through a press. |
#120
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jim VB
<<It seems that the first time available for this to happen is months away.>> |
#121
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Shawn
There is a ton of stuff on the web with the "United Cigar" logo PRINTED on it. I can find nothing with a stamp or reference to a stamp etc. Only printed material. I think the likelihood that the logo was printed on that paper is greater than stamped. |
#122
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: davidcycleback
I've learned with dealing with memorabilia that common sense is a an essential guide, but there sometimes will be something that surprises you-- typically involving new information. For example, the first time I saw a T206 ghost print, it was such a strange thing and I couldn't exactly explain that I wondered about it's authenticity. I also believe they are legitimate and think I know how they appeared. Another thing is if there's a 99 percent chance a happened and 1 percent chance b happened, don't pretend a and b are equal possibilities (something some people do in arguments). Any kid can come up with an "alternative theory" for why the cookies are missing from the cookie jar when he was the only one at home, but that doesn't mean mom should or will buy it. |
#123
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Shawn
Perhaps someone can contact this seller and buy this "United Cigar" card, then run a test on it? No way to really compare I guess, but would be interesting... |
#124
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Dave F
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#125
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Shawn
David, |
#126
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Dave F
"I have seen printed material that ink has soaked through and still can be read or seen with little change or unnoticeable change." |
#127
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Greg Theberge
Maybe it's me, but logic would suggest here that if someone really cared about finding out the truth, all they would have to do is simply lift up (you don't even have to remove it, it already looks like it can be lifted up)a small area of the backing at the edge of where the paper loss is and see if there is a continuation of the black print at this deeper level. |
#128
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Part of the problem with the card is, in fact, Elkins. If it were a different guy selling it there wouldn't be such disbelief. (As others have pointed out, however, I don't think it really makes a difference value-wise whether it's an "under" print or an overprint; it's just not worth more than a few bucks) It is just too difficult to believe that a guy whose entire essence is so morally repugnant is capable of telling the truth about any matter. And I'm not talking about his collecting government handouts instead of working or living in a trailer; compared to evertyhing else about him those are his good points. |
#129
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: ali_lapoint
hey jeff, a lot of families and people live in trailers because they have no other option. where you live or your economic status is not always an indicator of your character so maybe you should cool it a little bit. |
#130
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: David Smith
In the pictures that poster only_child has provided, tell me the "t" in "the" doesn't look like it is hovering over the "W"? |
#131
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Ali, I agree -- I specifically mentioned that Elkins' living in a trailer was one of his relatively good points. However, his proud history of animal abuse is more indicative of his character. |
#132
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: davidcycleback
I would imagine many trailers are more luxurious and spacious than many Manhattan condos. That the Manhattanite paid 100x more for his quarters doesn't necessarily make him appear smarter. There are trailer parks, which I assume is where you rent space. However, a fair number of rural trailer owners own the land and aren't poor. They may not be rich, but they're not poor. |
#133
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Joe D.
greg.... great post. |
#134
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Shawn
Perhaps I am not being clear... How can someone know if the ink has spread, without comparing it to the original logo? The top layer above the ink is gone! I think it is interesting how some folks expect to see some mass ink spread. It could be that the ink has spread but such that it is to hard to tell with the eye. The ink did not have to spread horizontally at some huge bulging quantity. Nor does the theory that ink would supposedly soak through something to infinity. It has to stop at some point. The fact that it did not soak through all the way to the front does not mean that it is a stamp. Ink is not some insane super acid that eats through every thing it touches. |
#135
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: dan mckee
it is an underprint, what are the odds that when the sweet cap paperloss happened on the left of the shield that it didn't take any of the underneath printed shield with it? No way underprint, stamped over in my professional opinion. Dan Mckee |
#136
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Joe D.
"Nor does the theory that ink would supposedly soak through something to infinity. It has to stop at some point. The fact that it did not soak through all the way to the front does not mean that it is a stamp. Ink is not some insane super acid that eats through every thing it touches." |
#137
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: David Smith
Shawn, |
#138
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: ROBERT ADAMS JR
If anyone wants a half-ass history of this card , I won on Ebay about 10 months ago thinking it was a stamp for $12 and turned it around as an underprint for $38 . If someone gets $150,000 for it I,ll S**T ! In fact , I put it up on a Recent Pickup thread at that time as an underprint and no one batted an eye . |
#139
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
1st, I still wouldn't pay $15 for it. |
#140
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: ROBERT ADAMS JR
Thanks Frank . I was kinda expecting $60-80 but was not too disappointed . I thought it was an interesting card under or over print but not worth more then $100 on a SUPER bidding day . |
#141
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Scott B.
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#142
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: davidcycleback
I think that's drastic. I don't believe making a single mistake undermines someone's reputation, as there isn't anyone who hasn't made a mistake. Even Sherlock Holmes made a mistake in deduction once or twice. |
#143
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
So it's a $12-$36 card that a lowlife put on ebay for $1500 hoping to make the score of his lifetime and got not a single offer. What next? |
#144
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: David Goff
Jeff |
#145
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Jerry Hrechka
Or roosters. |
#146
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: leon
I wonder if the underfoot of a rooster might resemble this stamp. Maybe a chicken got out and stepped on the card? I think this is a low life scumbag trying to defraud the public. It is probably indicative of an animal torturer's nature to also try to be a scammer. Maybe he is trying to subsidize his welfare subsidies? Maybe he should get a job like the rest of America and quit abusing animals, the system......I guess some scumbags just don't want to work and want a free handout....Scott Elkins is a low life scumbag....but you didn't hear it here first... |
#147
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Steve
Well, it's rec'd an offer. |
#148
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Shawn
I actually like this ad... I like the "no look cigar grab" by the guy in the middle. |
#149
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Anonymous
Again, I hate to beat a dead horse, but am I the only one that sees a similarity between the United logo and Croft logo? Seems this would have some sort of link between tobacco and candy issues. |
#150
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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken
Posted By: Steve
yes I noticed the resemblence as did a few others. |
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