"Lucky 7" find - Cobb with Cobb back

[ullmandds]

I am a terrible speculator but I do not see these cards fetching 2 million .

[CMIZ5290]

Goldin Auctions sold a PSA 1 that had more wrinkles than Phyllis Diller for $120k, and I think that was quite a while back. The PSA 4.5 of this card in this recent find is gong to bring huge money....

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted,

You're missing the point that Erick and "packs" are making.
This wouldn't be a 5th Cobb, the Cobb (red portrait) already
exists in the 524 card checklist.

Don't insult my intelligence !

I fully understand what they were driving at.

I stated that I consider this Cobb card the 525th card in the T206 set. Notice, I have emphasized the word CARD; and, not subject.

Furthermore, I consider that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON series should be included in the T206 set. Which now brings the total
to 593 cards comprising a complete T206 set....which consists of 17 basic Tobacco brands.

And, this is my opinion, of which I am entitled to have and to speak of (having collected T206's for 36 years).


Obviously, you (and some others) disagree; and, that is your prerogative.


TED Z
.

[jbl79]

According to PSA, two of the cards from the find have sold. The purchase prices haven't been revealed yet.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Erick

I'm not sure what you are saying....do you think this Cobb is, or is not part of the T206 family ?

And, if not then please clarify ?


TED

Originally Posted by packs

It is not. Then you'd have to count all the T213-1s and the T215-1s. They have the same fronts as well. It is not a new card. The checklist is not broken down by backs, it's broken down by fronts.

Then Mr. Barker was Wrong!?
In his American Card Catalog His Lists "Ty Cobb" as 1 of the Backs included in the T206 Set...

The T213-1 and T215-15 He Also Labeled as their OWN Designated Group!

So, "Would You Please Explain "Why" You Guys Know Bettar then the Man Who Wrote the Book!"

I Truly Love You Guyz...
Yet I have Always been a Truest in the Hobby.
Mr. Barker is an Icon!!!

Sorta Like Mr. Jobs, Paul Allen and Bill Gates!

I do Understand the idea that there weren't many "Ty Cobb Backs" Back in the Day. However, That didn't Stop Mr. Barker From adding them to the Set!

Personally ~ I Don't Like it either. But Truth is Truth!!!

Patiently Awaiting Your Replies...

Ohhh and I Would Love ta Know who deemed the T206 Set to Have ONLY 524 Cards in it? According ta Mr. Barker he can't add...

[Bruinsfan94]

[QUOTE=tedzan;1511276]Don't insult my intelligence !

I fully understand what they were driving at.

I stated that I consider this Cobb card the 525th card in the T206 set. Notice, I have emphasized the word CARD; and, not subject.

Furthermore, I consider that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON series should be included in the T206 set. Which now brings the total
to 593 cards comprising a complete T206 set....which consists of 17 basic Tobacco brands.

And, this is my opinion, of which I am entitled to have and to speak of (having collected T206's for 36 years).


Obviously, you (and some others) disagree; and, that is your prerogative.




I'm not understanding the logic here? I'm fine with the idea that every back is a different card but how does the number 525 or 593 come into play? If Cobb red with Cobb back is 525 why isn't say Cobb red with Polar back 526?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have no opinion, but I infer Ted thinks it's sufficiently different because it was distributed differently and/or is glossy that it counts as its own card.

[irishdenny]

I do Believe that Mr. Barker Viewed the "Ty Cobb Back" as an Anomaly within the T206 Set...

[iwantitiwinit]

The way I see it I hope you guys agree/determine there are only 524 subjects in the set. At least that way there are only 3 cards I will never own (wagner, plank and doyle) rather than 4!!!!!!!

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Don't insult my intelligence !

I fully understand what they were driving at.

I stated that I consider this Cobb card the 525th card in the T206 set. Notice, I have emphasized the word CARD; and, not subject.

Furthermore, I consider that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON series should be included in the T206 set. Which now brings the total
to 593 cards comprising a complete T206 set....which consists of 17 basic Tobacco brands.

And, this is my opinion, of which I am entitled to have and to speak of (having collected T206's for 36 years).


Obviously, you (and some others) disagree; and, that is your prerogative.


TED Z
.

I'll go with Ted Z's opinion every time pertaining backs....

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

The way I see it I hope you guys agree/determine there are only 524 subjects in the set. At least that way there are only 3 cards I will never own (wagner, plank and doyle) rather than 4!!!!!!!

According to Mr. Barker... it is 4!
But I wouldn't loose any sleep over it...

After All, there are many Anomaly's within the T206 Set...

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Don't insult my intelligence !



I fully understand what they were driving at.



I stated that I consider this Cobb card the 525th card in the T206 set. Notice, I have emphasized the word CARD; and, not subject.



TED Z

.

If you are counting "cards", then you are missing about 6000. See page 67 of Inside T206 which accounts for:
524 subjects
35 backs
6845 theoretical combinations (cards)

http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/i...al-edition.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[slidekellyslide]

We know more about the T206 set today than Buck Barker knew.

[yoyot1]

Originally Posted by tedzan

We had a interesting and spirited discussion on this subject 7 years ago. Check-out this thread (dated 1-26-2009).."Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate"
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=92026

If you don't have the time to read thru this very informative thread, then I'll save you the trouble by this excerpting this Post (#89) in it......

These Feb and Mar 1910 Newspaper clippings cinched for me....these dates fall within the T206 rubric....this Cobb card is indeed the 525th card in the T206 set.






TED Z
.

Just to add a little more info - I did a little bit of research on Ty Cobb tobacco awhile ago, and the earliest references to it that I've found precede those in the Macon newspaper.

Nov. 16 1909, in the Reidsville Review newspaper (Reidsville is the home of Factory 33), is the earliest mention I found. The other mentions in the Reidsville Review are from Jan 25 and 28, 1910, and Webster's Weekly (Reidsville) on Jan 27, 1910.

I don't consider the Ty Cobb a T206 card, i just think it is a one-off card. I'm fine with the assumption that it was included in the tins (which I don't think there is any proof of yet, but makes sense). FR Penn joined the trust secretly around 1903/4 I think, but to the outside world it was still presented as an independent. I don't think it become publicly outed as controlled by the trust until 1910 (I've misplaced the newspaper article that indicated this, and may have my years mixed up) - if this is the case and the card was distributed in 1909/10 then it could have appeared to just be a card from a different tobacco company. It was definitely distributed in a different way from other T206s as the only card from Factory 33.

But that's all my opinion, and I'd be happy to see further evidence.

[jkray25]

So your saying I should take a 35 min drive to some Reidsville antique stores? No idea it was manufactured in NC.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

We know more about the T206 set today than Buck Barker knew.

Blasphemy...

Do Tell!?

I Realize that we do!
I Just don't think that we Really Need to Re~Think
All His Work...

It is what it is...
Why is "The Ty Cobb Back", either in or out of the T206 Set So Important to Everyone...? A Red Cobb is a Red Cobb... No? Glossy or Not, it's Still a Red Cobb!

Mr. Barker added it to the Set... That's Good Enough fir me!

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Am I missing something? Isn't the front of the Ty Cobb tobacco card the same as a red Cobb? If so how can it be a different card, just a red Cobb with a VERY rare back?

I too believe it sounds like a promotional piece and not an insert?

[irv]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-1911-T2...IAAOSwh-1W2Gsa

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by irv

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-1911-T2...IAAOSwh-1W2Gsa

Not sure I would want the Harris Collection pedigree either.
http://catalog.scpauctions.com/1909-...-lot29314.aspx

[familytoad]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I agree with Glyn and Leon. I think these cards will easily exceed $2 Mil....

That , of course , is 7 people (or corporations) @ 300,000 each...or more if you mean to say far above 2 million.

I don't see that happening, but stranger things have...

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by familytoad

That , of course , is 7 people (or corporations) @ 300,000 each...or more if you mean to say far above 2 million.

I don't see that happening, but stranger things have...

Since the last 1 sold for 150k, and the 3.5 and 4.5 are the top two grades this card has ever received, I think 2 mil is a conservative estimate.

Say 200k for the 1.5, 300k for the 4 2.5s, 500k for the 3.5, 750 for the 4.5. Of course these all just numbers I made up, but I could see them going for that or more. That's 2.65 mil at my guesses, and I would not be surprised by a total of 3 mil.

The word is that two are already sold. If this is the case, I'm sure they didn't sell cheap.

[RaidonCollects]

This is a really, really cool find.

I agree with Ted on this one, I'm not by any means a T206 back expert (at all, so please correct me if I am wrong), but the Ty Cobb back Cobbs are different to the regular red backgrounds the same way they're different to Coupon Type 1 Red Backgrounds.

Also, is this now the third rarest T206 back?

3. Ty Cobb
2. Brown Old Mill
1. Brown Old Mill Fact. 649 Overprint?

~Owen

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by irv

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-1911-T2...IAAOSwh-1W2Gsa

card 526?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I'll go with Ted Z's opinion every time....

And the earth is flat. I am 54 yrs old and you can believe me!!

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not sure I would want the Harris Collection pedigree either.
http://catalog.scpauctions.com/1909-...-lot29314.aspx

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

card 526?

I guess I shouldn't have posted that link as I know practically nothing about these cards but when I seen it while surfing E-Bay, I thought maybe it was fitting for this thread?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Don't insult my intelligence !

I fully understand what they were driving at.

I stated that I consider this Cobb card the 525th card in the T206 set. Notice, I have emphasized the word CARD; and, not subject.

Furthermore, I consider that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON series should be included in the T206 set. Which now brings the total
to 593 cards comprising a complete T206 set....which consists of 17 basic Tobacco brands.

And, this is my opinion, of which I am entitled to have and to speak of (having collected T206's for 36 years).


Obviously, you (and some others) disagree; and, that is your prerogative.


TED Z
.

Pardon me Ted, but I don't see how I insulted your intelligence.
Erick and packs asked you why you think the Cobb/Cobb should
be added to the basic set and you come back and post a couple
of times why you think it should be considered a T206 which
was completely different from what they were asking.

It doesn't matter to me whether the Cobb/Cobb or Coupon 1 are
considered a T206 or not so I don't have an opinion on it but
stating that a card is indeed the 525th card in the set
is stating a fact not an opinion.

Sometime your posts can be hard to decipher when you contradict
yourself. You said the Cobb/Cobb should be the 525th card in the
set and the 5th Cobb but based on your follow up post in your
own opinion it should be the 6th Cobb (Coupon 1) and there
should be 7 Hal Chase cards not 5.

[begsu1013]

is my condensed version correct?

these cards have the same front as a red ty cobb w/ various backs.

but the ty cobb back is most likely released in a later year for a specialized release and they simply just used the front from the red t206?

or in simpler terms...

I wouldn't make the 89 bowman mantle part of the 1953 bowman set?

[begsu1013]

back

[Boccabella]

Cobb apparently began smoking in 1909 and Ty Cobb brand tobacco debuted in January of 1910. It was made in Reidsville, NC.

There's a funny reference to his smoking history via an old newspaper clipping in this update on the sale of the 2 newly discovered cards.

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...d-in-bag-sold/

[gemmint77]

What a find. Can only hope we get so lucky some day!! Keep searching...

[Republicaninmass]

Say 200k for the 1.5, 300k for the 4 2.5s, 500k for the 3.5, 750 for the 4.5.

I'll say 50% of these above guessed prices.


Do I win anything?

[Peter_Spaeth]

They are being sold privately by Rick. I doubt we will know the prices. Two have sold already, at least.

[tedzan]

Pat R.

Perhaps, I got carried away with my comments regarding the Ty Cobb Tobacco card and the 1910 COUPON series of 68 cards....because I strongly feel that these 69 cards
should be included in the T206 family; and, that there are really 17 basic Tobacco brands within the T206 timeline. All 69 of these cards were issued in the Spring of 1910.

What really ticked me off was your response (cited here) questioning the date of the Ty Cobb Tobacco card [I guess for whatever reason it does not jive with your agenda]:

Originally Posted by Pat R

I did see post #81 and I don't see where it "clearly tells us when the cards
were circulated". I also don't see a date on any of the newspaper clippings.

The date....Feb. and Mar. of 1910....of these Newspaper clippings is identified by the fellow who posted it, Shawn. Shawn was an excellent contributor to Net54 back in 2009.

So, are you are accusing Shawn of lying about this date ?

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Shawn

I am not sure what the article below is about, because I do not have a subscription to the site... I sure would like to read it though! I have noticed that the "Ty Cobb" brand advertisements are prodominately in the "Macon Weekly Telegraph" paper in Ga. The months seem to be Feb. and Mar. of 1910. If someone has a subscription to genealogybank.com, it would be nice to see some of the full adds. (there seems to be some full page adds)



Macon Weekly Telegraph 1910

TED Z
.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Leon

And the earth is flat. I am 54 yrs old and you can believe me!!

Leon- I guess I should have been more specific, as I was simply referring to Ted's knowledge of T206 backs. He has helped me numerous times in the past, and I value his opinion greatly. I know there are many more guys on the board who also have outstanding knowledge pertaining this subject...

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Don't insult my intelligence !

I fully understand what they were driving at.

I stated that I consider this Cobb card the 525th card in the T206 set. Notice, I have emphasized the word CARD; and, not subject.

TED Z

.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat R.

Perhaps, I got carried away with my comments regarding the Ty Cobb Tobacco card and the 1910 COUPON series of 68 cards....because I strongly feel that these 69 cards
should be included in the T206 family; and, that there are really 17 basic Tobacco brands within the T206 timeline. All 69 of these cards were issued in the Spring of 1910.

.

So are you still saying 525?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat R.

Perhaps, I got carried away with my comments regarding the Ty Cobb Tobacco card and the 1910 COUPON series of 68 cards....because I strongly feel that these 69 cards
should be included in the T206 family; and, that there are really 17 basic Tobacco brands within the T206 timeline. All 69 of these cards were issued in the Spring of 1910.

What really ticked me off was your response (cited here) questioning the date of the Ty Cobb Tobacco card [I guess for whatever reason it does not jive with your agenda]:




The date....Feb. and Mar. of 1910....of these Newspaper clippings is identified by the fellow who posted it, Shawn. Shawn was an excellent contributor to Net54 back in 2009.

So, are you are accusing Shawn of lying about this date ?







TED Z
.

I'm not accusing Shawn of lying if you read his response he states that "the
months seem to be Feb. and Mar. 1910" which leads me to believe he Didn't
find a definite date on these clippings.

And if you could please show me where it clearly states when the Cobb/Cobb
cards were circulated in the clippings I'd appreciate it, Perhaps I'm missing that.

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I'm not accusing Shawn of lying if you read his response he states that "the
months seem to be Feb. and Mar. 1910" which leads me to believe he Didn't
find a definite date on these clippings.

And if you could please show me where it clearly states when the Cobb/Cobb
cards were circulated in the clippings I'd appreciate it, Perhaps I'm missing that.

The dates were most definitely Feb & March of 1910 for the articles that I posted... My statement about "the months seem to be" was a generalization meaning that "so far" this seems to be the trend.... At the time, there was still a lot of research to do....

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

The dates were most definitely Feb & March of 1910 for the articles that I posted... My statement about "the months seem to be" was a generalization meaning that "so far" this seems to be the trend.... At the time, there was still a lot of research to do....

Thank you Shawn, I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't calling anyone
a liar. I was only saying I didn't see a date on the clippings But Ted has a bad
habit of trying to put words in peoples mouths.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Thank you Shawn, I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't calling anyone
a liar. I was only saying I didn't see a date on the clippings But Ted has a bad
habit of trying to put words in peoples mouths.

What the hell are you saying here ? .... "But Ted has a bad habit of trying to put words in peoples mouths."

I did NOT "put words" in your mouth ! ! .... I simply asked you a question in response to "wise-a$$" remark you made regarding my Post #81.

This crap of your's is sidetracking what is a great thread. It's time to grow up, and quit your snide remarks on whatever meaningful inputs on this subject
matter that I have been posting in this thread.


TED Z
.

[smokelessjoe]

I posted this several years ago - Neat adv. stating 10c per package...

March 10 1910 Augusta Ga. Paper.

Also notice at the bottom it states:

Reidsville NC
Atlanta Ga
Sanfrancisco Cal

[jkray25]

This is like the time your parents start arguing in front of you and your like.....

Everyone has an opinion, which have all been voiced in this thread. Just let it be. Who cares who is "right". We all love cards, that's why we're here no?

A find like this is big and rightly so, T206 or not.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk

[Joshwesley]

Originally Posted by jkray25

This is like the time your parents start arguing in front of you and your like.....

Everyone has an opinion, which have all been voiced in this thread. Just let it be. Who cares who is "right". We all love cards, that's why we're here no?

A find like this is big and rightly so, T206 or not.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk

Amen!
Can we just talk about the find, rarity of the cards etc...?

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I doubt we will know the prices. Two have sold already, at least.

I think you're correct. I talked to the guy who bought the first two, and while I didn't ask the price, I get the sense he isn't keen on disclosing that information.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I think you're correct. I talked to the guy who bought the first two, and while I didn't ask the price, I get the sense he isn't keen on disclosing that information.

Exactly. Why would he?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

I posted this several years ago - Neat adv. stating 10c per package...

March 10 1910 Augusta Ga. Paper.

Also notice at the bottom it states:

Reidsville NC
Atlanta Ga
Sanfrancisco Cal

Interesting, F.R. Penn Tobacco Co. wasn't purchased by ATC until 1911. Were these issued in 1910 by Penn or in 1911 by ATC right before they were broken up?

[smokelessjoe]

This is another helpful Thread that may answer some of the ownership questions.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...122677&page=12

[ullmandds]

i think its kinda cool they are being sold privately while the sharks circle trying for a piece of the action!

[ullmandds]

For some reason some issues have the appearance that they were printed at a higher quality level...they just have more vivid colors and registration is spot on.

From my experience most of the red hindu t206's ive owned...some proof cards...these cobb/cobb's appear to be printed with more care than most issues!

[jl9999]

Kinda bummed these are being sold privately. I would've enjoyed watching those auctions.

[ullmandds]

well with 7 more on the market there is higher likelihood one will come up sooner on the chop block.