Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

wow...that high res scan is awesome...it looks like it was hand picked by Lionel Carter...but he never would have trimmed it!

pete in mn

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric Brehm

Here is another comparison using the news photo posted by JimB and the higher resolution scan of the PSA-graded example that Joseph provided. The top and bottom borders look strikingly similar, while the side borders are clearly narrower on the graded one. But the news photo is just too murky to find any distinguishing characteristic that establishes definitively that they are the same card.

But, as Barry pointed out, if the raw card shown in the news photo is not the one which was encapsulated, then what and where the heck is that card?

[Archive]

Posted By: Glyn Parson

that thinks the card is played with but, if were wealthy enough would still buy it? It has the best eye appeal of any wagner i have ever seen.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Maybe it's just me, but looking at Eric's latest side-by-said comparison, it appears to me that all four borders, top to bottom and side to side, are pretty darn close. I can't exactly see the difference anymore. I have a large computer screen and just on a whim, I took a ruler and measured the borders from the picture to the edge for the card on both the high res color scan and the black and white photo. I came out with virtually the same numbers, and the tiniest of differences I can chalk up to the fact that although the images are close in size, they are not 100% exact. Anyone else's thoughts?

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

I agree Jon. I can't tell an obvious difference in the borders based on those two scans.

[Archive]

Posted By: MW

Brian was quoted in Michael O'Keeffe's book as saying the "before photo" was inconclusive. In the side-by-side comparison above (which I believe to be an accurate one) there is no discernable difference between the two cards. It appears that Michael O'Keeffe owes PSA and Bill Mastro an apology for some of his statements and allegations.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

I'm pretty sure that before the Card is resold or auctioned we will all hear Mastro and PSA's side of the story.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think we will ever hear a word from either side.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Of course that's possible, but collectors will believe there's a good chance that the Card was trimmed at some point. If everything was kosher they would speak up.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: boxingcardman

Unless there is irrefutable evidence out there (such as a confession from someone directly involved in the trimming), the best way to stay out front of the issue is to maintain silence in the face of the accusation. Leave it to the chat board readers, rumor mongers and speculators to talk out the issue, and let business return to normal. Also, it is better to have no record of your position in case the facts take a turn for the worse rather than pinning yourself down to a story in public. And follow the old maxim that good or bad publicity doesn't matter as long as they spell your name right.

Also remember, no matter what Mastro would say on the issue, he'd lose. If he says he trimmed the card and fooled PSA and the rest of the collecting world, he destroys his trade. Not gonna happen. If he says I never did anything of the sort, no one who thinks the card is altered will change their minds (they'll just think he's a liar too) and no one who thinks the card is OK will change their minds about Mastro. About all he would do is leave himself open to charges of lying if seemingly irrefutable evidence were to emerge later on.

One thing you are forgetting as well is that what we are talking about is a conspiracy to defraud. Evidence of conspiracies rarely leaps out at you and says "hello, we got together to cheat you" (unless the conspirators are really lame). You have to build it inferentially from bits and pieces of evidence. Many building blocks are there in this case. There is testimony from witnesses to the prior condition of the card, some possible photographic evidence of the card, Hughes' observations on grading the card, and what many of us see in looking at the card now. What is missing is the cutter and the mastermind, and they are never, ever going to come forward. In lawyerspeak, I think we could get to a jury on the evidence but what they'd do with it, I have no idea.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

You brought up good points.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Thank you Adam. I couldn't have expressed it that well myself.

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Wans't this card refused as trimmed the first time it was submitted to PSA? Is there a record of that somewhere or just another rumor? Dan.

[Archive]

Posted By: Marc S.

I thought that PSA really did not exist before the grading of Wagner and it was specifically this card that led to the creation of PSA as an independent third-party grading company.

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Huh? It is in a slab now, I thought the first time it was submitted was just before this slabbing. PSA was created because grading had taken off in coins so it spawned over to cards was my understanding. Dan.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

I have never heard of it being rejected. It was part of PSA's big splash opening.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Really? Am I the only one that heard that?? oops! I don't want to get shot over this.

[Archive]

Posted By: D.C. Markel

Looking at the best two photos of before and after (shown above), I would say at the very least it is inconclusive and more than likely not the same card. That prominent black dot to the left of left earlobe (facing us) doesn't seem to show up on the "before" pic, although it could be argued that the resolution on the before pic is inadequate. But there also seems to be a tiny blue dot above his left ear (facing us) on the before pic that doesn't show in the after pic.

The other thing about the newspaper photo is that it looks like the Wagner card is in a CardSaver I. There is even some reflection off the holder where the "CardSaver I" logo would be located if it was a CardSaver I. I know the makers of that those holders, CardbordGold, came into business just around the time of the sale of the card, but did they offer that size holder with the logo in 1985? I don't know, but it would be nice if it could be proven if the photo dates itself in some way. Perhaps if the photo ifself has a printing date with the appropriate printing paper. These are things I'd like to now more about before drawing any conclusions, which may also flush out a hoax.

This large scan of the "8" does show some wear in the bottom, which one wouldn't expect from a trimmed card. Of course I'm aware that some people will generate contrived wear on a fake card to fool people, but I can't see that happening on an authentic T206 Wagner.

Finally, the whole Alan Ray/Mastro story is bothersome. In my opinion, that whole story comes across as a severely embittered individual who most likely made a relatively gigantic profit but is enraged because he didn't make a super-mega-colossal profit on the card. The whole "he bullied me into selling it" diatribe is also laughable - as if Mastro put a gun to his head to force the sale.

I guess it all makes great message board fodder, but in the end there is still no smoking gun and the mystique lingers on.

[Archive]

Posted By: larry

is it just the scan (of the newspaper picture), or is the diamond cut reversed on the two? also, doesn't the diamond cut on the 8 make it look like a trim on the top rather than an actual trim? when i look at the big scan, it looks perfectly "square" on the top.

[Archive]

Posted By: MW

Larry,

I think part of the problem stems from the fact that in the second picture of the T206 Wagner on the NY Daily News website, the card is actually leaning against another object at an oblique angle. Therefore a certain distortion (parallax) is created that is typical of this type of photography. Furthermore, in the first image of the Wagner on the NY Daily News site it is clear that the inner border on the card is uneven -- another indication of photographic distortion.

I'm sure some photography experts (David Rudd?) can explain this effect better.

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric B

I still think that if you take the known dimensions of the black border area (the same for all T206's) and then compare the ratio of the white outside borders to black borders on that great detailed picture, you can determine the actual card dimensions that nobody seems to know.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

my god that large scan is mesmerizing...i think i'm in love!

pete in mn

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Evans

Keith Olbermann had a segment on The Card on his show tonight. Mark

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Missed the show. Did Keith say anything interesting.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: masimm

I think the real questions should be - Where did Alan Ray get the card from? Did Alan Ray cut this card from a sheet? If so, prior to 1985 - where was the sheet for the last 76 years? Was it sitting in some abandoned tobacco factory warehouse? You would think someone would come around and say, "Hey, Alan Ray bullied me into selling this card sheet to him for $100. And he cut it!" LOL! Was this card stolen - which would be the only explanation for the secret where-abouts before Alan Ray? I've read where Jefferson Burdick's collection at the museum had some cards stolen over the years when the public was allowed to actually pull out the albums and look/hold the cards. This of course way back in the 1940's and 1950's. Could it have come from there? Rather than dwell on whether the card was touched up, I wonder if the card is even real? Maybe a reprint? Also, what about the other cards Ray had to throw in to Mastro to make the 25k deal? What players were they and were they cut from the same sheet?

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

I may change my mind looking at the pictures some more, but I'd say the pictures are inconclusive at this time. As Michael mentioned, it's problematic comparing the borders of two cards when one is pictured straight and centered and the other is pictured tilted and slightly bent.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Evans

Peter--

Keith's show tracked the N.Y. Daily News article. As I recall, he also noted that he has a personal source with first-hand knowledge who told him the card was trimmed. Mark

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

So after the Card was cut from the sheet, it was subsequently trimmed...now the big question is who was the source?

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Spaeth

The markings on the cards look different to me, particularly the blue dot above the ear on the before.

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Thomas

Just to the left of center over Wagner's head there are 3 red dots that are in the top border on the graded card. It looks to me like the same dots are in the other image which is not nearly as clear.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ronnie

I saw that they had an interview with Michael O'Keefe on the game used forum...

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=9398

Ron

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Did anyone happen to read the link in that interview to the Kellen Winslow helmet in the April Mastro auction?

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=8654

Wow....just wow.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ronnie

I love the backpedaling once things were revealed. Doctored cards, doctored game used items. Shouldn't surprise anyone really.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, if that link does not convince everyone to stay away from game used stuff on Mastro (or any auction site) I don't know what could. Shocking to say the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

It is sure enough to make one wonder what in the hell is going on at Mastro. Why didn't Doug answer any of those guys questions like he does occasionally over here?

I'm no fan of O'Keeffe's, he did after all write a blatant lie in one of his columns about the people here at Net54, but he has some very valid points in that Q&A.

All of this makes Leland's poor taste (Clemente Airplane) pretty tame to what is going on at Mastro. They admit to altering cards before sending them off to the graders, and now this???? They have no excuse for that Helmet. None.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Jeff,

I sometimes tell this story about why I would never pay a dime for any piece of equipment touted as being "game used":

In 1989 I played for the Wichita Wranglers, the Class AA team of the San Diego Padres. Early in the season, our team's bat order from Louisville Slugger was delayed, so the parent club shipped six dozen bats to hold us over. There were a variety of different player models, and in searching through the boxes, I came across a few of Tony Gwynn's, who just so happened to use the same model (C271) as I did. I immediately snagged three of them. I kept one (the collector in me) and used two others during the next few weeks. Another coincidence is that Gwynn and I each wore the same uniform number. I ended up cracking the two I used after much game use.

So ... two bats issued to Tony Gwynn, each -- by coincidence -- bears his uniform number on the bottom of the handle and each shows great game use (albeit Texas League game use). Assuming that Gwynn didn't tape his bat handles in some intricate manner that was different in how I taped mine, my bet is these could easily be passed off as game-used by him.

I'm sure situations in which team-issued equipment gets passed along and made to look game used happens all the time. Unless I saw the player use it and he handed it to me, I'd always be leery.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich

I have some access to a local low level minor league club and was there the day their bats came in for 2006. Essentially, they were given bargain deals on the runovers and printing errors of MLB orders to Louisville Slugger. The team was more concerned with weight, length, etc. but it was surprising to find bats that had been created for several big league clubs/players. I personally held a couple of Pudge Rodriguez models and there were many more. No doubt there are plenty of these bats that wind up in the marketplace with no readily apparent signs of which ballfield they came from.

BTW, here's another Q&A with the author: http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/latest/author-talks-about-the-card.html

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

That's why good provenance is a good thing.