Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

but I find your continued and increasingly personal attacks on the seller to be disappointing and inappropriate. The fact that he is banned from responding and defending himself here makes it all the more unimpressive, but apart from that, it was completely unnecessary--the thread had plenty of legs and interesting points on the subject matter.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Todd,

It's hard to take sides unless you have read a couple of years back in board history.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

why in every other instance is the united cigars logo in red ink and this one is in black? can anyone produce a single example of an authentic united cigars logo in black ink?

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Posted By: Shawn

Ali,

Check some of the links I posted above... Some of them are of black ink. I have seen many others online also.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

thanks, but I've been here since this board started, and was on the one before that. I know the history just fine. I stand by my remarks.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Well, Elkins could always respond on the board he started -- woops, he was banned from there as well. Lucky for him ebay still allows him to personally attack individuals in his baseball card listings. Let's see for how much longer.

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Posted By: leon

Thanks for your opinion. My remarks stand also.
warm regards

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

shawn, do you have something invested in this card or are you a friend of the seller? i saw the images you linked to earlier but they are entirely different from the stamp on the back of the card in question. first, the stamp is missing the copy right information listed on the bottom of the united cigars logo in this example: http://www.network54.com/Forum/526604/message/1201457065/2nd+January+Pickup+thread. what's more is that in the aviator examples you posted the logo is printed in the same color and consistency as the card, and the logo is extremely small. the stamp on this card is very large and in an independent ink from the rest of the card. it is an entirely different style than the 2 examples you linked to. so i am curious to see a common example of the print. i haven't seen one yet.

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Posted By: Shawn

Ali,

I do not have anything invested in this card. Nor will I ever have anything invested in this card. I had not even seen this card until this thread. As to the seller, I do not believe I have ever heard of him until this thread. Though I may remember something about cockfighting on the forum years ago? I have zero concern of who how or what this seller is. I am just someone who is extremely interested in "baseball stuff" that I have never seen or heard of. Especially if no-one has ever seen it or heard of it... The "United Cigar" company history is extremely interesting to me and I would not have known about it if it were not for this thread.

I do agree with you as far as the similarites (or lack there of)in the logo. I think I have seen some really close to the one on the back of the SC. I will see if I can find them. I believe my point in posting the logos was more about the fact that this was a massive company of its time and PRINTED huge amounts of material. I do not believe this was some small outfit that stamped the back of certain items. That logo was PRINTED on millions of paper items.

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Posted By: Dave F

Shawn-

You must have missed my request before. Show me a scan of another T206 or any pre-war card with the paper missing from the back which still has the print visible.

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Posted By: DD

Has he stopped crowing about the card, Jeff and Leon yet? I can't believe I just said that.

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Posted By: Steve

I should have mentioned this sooner but in regards to the
fact that crofts and United cigar using the same style logo.

It is a basic crest type logo that many people have used.

My alma mater uses it as does many other schools.


Steve

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Posted By: Walter

Shawn,

I have over 6,000 T59's and T113's and other non sport tobacco cards and none of them have a United Cigars Store stamp.

Just to show an example, here is the 1910-11 United Cigar Stores catalogue. One could collect coupons from their products and redeem them through the company. This one measures about 4.5 by 7.5 inches. The only othe one I have is from 1921, but I am not sure when they stopped offering these rewards.

Walt






Always looking for T59 Flag cards and T113 Types of Nations.
http://www.t59flags.com

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Posted By: Red

That Boston Garter would make a nifty overprint on a T206.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Nice group.

Since I was asked to give an opinion about a card from a collector many here seem to dislike, I was told I am now considered to be "associated with animal torturer's and welfare recipients."

Thanks for that email...unbelievable. Please leave me out of your fight!

Kevin

------------------------------

www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: Dan Lundrigan

I have been following this thread because I am interested in the CARD not all the hostility.Kevin I am sorry that certain members here have attacked you for offering your expert opinion on this card.I do not know Mr. Elkins or his past nor do I care to,I also do not know any members here on this board.I think it`s about time for some people to think first before making accusations like the one leveled at Mr. Saucier for just trying to help!

I am posting this pic not that it has anything to do with the card but just to suggest anything is possible!

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Posted By: leon

I didn't mean to associate you with the other crap. My email back to you was private but I did say you are associating with someone I am not fond of. And I might have also said that I feel we are who we associate with... I have always held that as a rule....
I have taken my comment regarding your thoughts on the card out of that post. My apology for putting your name in there....It should have been a different post. I still disagree with your analysis as I am not convinced there should be ink in the areas of paper loss, as if this was an "underprint". An overprint would have exactly the ink it left on the paper loss areas. Another thing is that Richard L has stated, I believe, he has a lot of this kind of brand's insignias but has never seen a print like is on the card in question. I think it was done after the card was made...regards

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Posted By: Shawn

Leon,

Can you not stop talking about this guy? BASEBALL

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Posted By: Shawn

Walter,

Thanks for posting the booklet, really nice piece in its own right.


Leon,
I did not see the Richard L post... I am wondering if he can post some of the images of the United Cigar stuff he has. Kind of a weird way to ask, but I could not find the post you spoke of.

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Posted By: leon

I am probably not going to post in this thread anymore and actually I hope it just goes away. The card has a stamp on it or not....it will sell or not. We know it was sold for about $36 and now is up for sale for 150k. Actually I don't care what someone asks for a card. My last post was concerning my thoughts on the card directed at Kevin and also trying to pull him out from under the bus I accidentally threw him under....actually, it was 2 different thoughts in one post but whatever, it's edited now and put correctly in another post....That last post had nothing at all to do with the seller.

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Posted By: Shawn

Leon,

No worries... This will be my last post also.

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Posted By: Rob D.

This will be my last post in this thread, too. However, I hope to continue in my upcoming eBay ads.

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Posted By: Steve

Kevin didn't you know that no good deed goes unpunished.

Steve

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Posted By: cmoking

Leon: "Maybe he should get a job like the rest of America and quit abusing animals, the system, and possibly children"

The last three words are over the line for me.

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Posted By: Tim

I have no idea why Kevin would be "thrown under the bus" in this situation. Wouldn't any reputable seller who's listing was called into question seek out someone to back up their claim? Have we reached the point that anyone with knowledge to authenticate a card should second guess giving their opinion based on where the card has come from for fear they will be tainted by the owner? Their purpose, as I believe to be Kevin's, is to expose fraud, not perpetuate it. So maybe you disagree with Kevin's findings, but to assert that by examining the card he now becomes one of the bad guys is very small minded in my opinion.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

King, duly noted.

By the way -- is proud defense of animal abuse over the line for you?

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Posted By: cmoking

Jeff, all I'll say is that I'm sorry I posted. I hope I don't make that mistake again.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

So, that's neither a yes nor a no?

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Posted By: cmoking

I'm here to post, read and learn about baseball cards and the hobby. I guess I'm no longer welcome. Thanks Jeff. Thanks Leon.

edited to add: ok, I'm officially done. go ahead and whip me if you like Jeff.

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Posted By: Tim

Jeff-

This card existed before it came into this sellers hands and will exsist after he eventually sells it for whatever amount. So why can it not be discussed without leaving him out of the conversation?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

King, who on earth said you weren't welcome? And who is to say who determines who is welcome? Off-topic posts are all over the board -- by reading them do you feel unwelcome? People disagree about things all the time out here, it'll pass and you'll feel better soon.

Edited to add: Tim, the card is being discussed. I hardly think there has been an effort to stifle talk about the card. I am obviously repulsed by Elkins but I've never sought to censor discussion about the card. If you feel that I have, my apologies.

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Posted By: JK

I dont care for animal abuse and Im not defending scott or his non-card related choices. However, this is a forum for the discussion of baseball cards. Moreover, the rules of this forum seem to be very selectively applied. Perhaps everyone ought to take a read:

"Personal attacks will not be allowed. Name calling will not be allowed (unless it's real funny ) (Just kidding.) Those exchanges can be taken off line and will be asked to do so."

So, unless these rules dont apply when directed toward folks who aren't allowed to post here, what do you say we continue to discuss the card and take the personal attacks off line?

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Jeff,
I can only speak for myself, but I think what people are trying to say is, when is enough, enough. You and Leon have made yourselves very clear how you feel about Scott Elkins. Having to remind us of that in nearly every post in this thread and others get's a bit old. Lets not forget the real reason this forum exist. "Baseball Cards" man. Lets keep it to subject.

Leon,
I second Kings feelings about the "abusing children" remark that was made in reference towards Scott.
That was way over the line for my liking as well and should have been never been said.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

As always, Josh articulates the point better than I could.

I'm leaning towards believing it's a stamp on the card, and this thread is otherwise making me disgusted.

-Al

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Guys -- fair enough.

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Posted By: Brian

<<Leon: "Maybe he should get a job like the rest of America and quit abusing animals, the system, and possibly children"

The last three words are over the line for me. >>


I respectfully agree with King here.

I don't support cruelty or murder of animals. I also don't support cruelty or murder of humans. I am not sure what the next questions might be.

The actual talk about the card & stamp is very cool.

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Posted By: leon

Well, I said I wouldn't post anymore but guess I need to.

I took part of my post out that seemed to offend a few folks. It is my thought and I have reason to believe it but I will leave it to a private email if anyone cares, shoot me an email and I will say why.

King- no one said you aren't welcome. You left the board before for no reason too. Your call.

JK- maybe you aren't being fixated on by someone you hate. I am. Maybe if you were, and had your name smeared on ebay, in a negative way, and in many other places (for years), you would see my point. I doubt it though.

Not one person who has a prolem with what I said has been hassled for no freaking reason the way I have been, so whoever has a problem with me posting about it, maybe you really need to give some thought about being hassled by someone for YEARS, FOR NO REASON, and think about how you would feel? At some point you might fight back?

Sorry if I offended any Net54'ers.....can we get back to cards?

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Posted By: Steve

I was told a few months back it was better to take the high road.

It is good advice.


Steve

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Posted By: leon

You are right. The idiocy has been going on so long I couldn't help myself. I snapped and am regretful for it....What more can I say except "my apologies" and it won't happen again...

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I think it is about a $15 card. Still, after all above.


Why not let's 'bid' on it right here. I'll start with $9. And that is my last bid. If any of you want it more than that, bid in. If I win it I'll burn it.


The owner can watch, and if anyone here bids it up enough that the owner wants to sell it, great!!!

FW

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Duly note, you can determine whether or not the ink soaked that deep, by removing a similarly deep portion of paper from an undamaged area of the stamp. If the ink had penetrated has deep in that area, that would show the ink had genuinely soaked that deep. This wouldn't definitively prove it an understamp, but would support the deep soak theory. If the ink tone is consistent with the same depth at the currently exposed scrape area, that would be consistent with a stamp placed before the scrape damage. If ink has not soaked that deep in the currently undamaged area, this would pretty much prove it's a later stamp (put on after the scrapbook removal or whatever caused the scrape). As the card is a low grade common and already has damage in the stamping area, further removal would not be a significant problem conditionally.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

i too have noticed the rules selectively applied in various threads

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Posted By: leon

Be careful about making accusations and staying anonymous. Please post or email me, besides this thread, where rules are not being fairly meted out..I try to be as fair as possible. That goes for anyone else too. I am open to scrutiny just like anyone else, which is another reason for the anti-anonymity rule.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

you have my e-mail address. and i dont see why you're singling out me when there are other posts saying the same thing in the thread. not to mention i wasn't even being snide or rude or saying anything about you personally.

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Posted By: leon

"i too have noticed the rules selectively applied in various threads"

With that statement I think it's my right to know who you are or at minimum show me what you are talking about; is that asking too much?....

what jk wrote was mainly about this thread, or maybe other of the sellers issues, on this board without him being able to defend himself. That is a fair statement and I know who said it. Your email to me is from "A Person@...."

So unless your name is "a person" then I don't care to argue with you....and you have limited rights to argue on the board.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Frank,

I'll put in a covering bid of $80. It would be worth every penny to me for the enjoyment of performing a little extra peeling and finding out the truth of the card


Daniel

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Posted By: Steve

I snapped and am regretful for it..



NP Leon, we all make mistakes.


I won't hold it agin ya.


Steve

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Posted By: JK

Frank,

I wont bid a penny over $149,999.99 for it.

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Posted By: scott fandango

im very surprised to see the forum owner acting in such a way...after this display, how do you expect others to act?

set a good example and stop embarrassing yourself....

Jeff, same goes to you...i would expect a top collector to act with more class....

is this behavior a result of an end to the beckett boards?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Sorry Scott, but I tend to behave in a classless manner when innocent, defenseless animals are being tortured.