Is the Grading System Broken? - Page 4

Archive · #**151** 07-08-2007, 08:05 PM

Posted By: T206Collector

First of all, don't you think Rob's question was rhetorical?

Second of all, the explanation that, "There are people on Net 54 that are vehemently anti-grading and I stand up to them" is not an accurate reflection of the reason your posts are taken so negatively by many of us.

In my opinion, your failure to understand and address your ability to cause such divisive threads is, in my opinion, a real problem of your participation on this Board.

Archive · #**152** 07-08-2007, 08:07 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

T206,

Anyone that owns T206 cards PSA 8 cards of any quantity(I own 140)probably has some that are altered--no surprise--I don't know if I do or which ones they may be but even if my PSA 8 cards crossed to SGC 88 they would lose value. Unlikely many would increase in grade although its possible and some would fall or not grade.

On your other comment, I like all my cards--just hearing a number of things about altered T206s, Goudeys and Play Balls getting through and being slabbed. So for money reasons and security reasons switching focus for time being(which I often do).

Archive · #**153** 07-08-2007, 08:10 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

T206,

I strive to be controversial--I will take that as a compliment--thank you.

Archive · #**154** 07-08-2007, 08:13 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim Crandell - The Ann Coulter of Net54.

Archive · #**155** 07-08-2007, 08:16 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

Thats another great compliment--thank you--Ann Coulter is incredibly bright and she is right on the issues--just don't ever call me the Keith Olberman of Net 54.

Jim

Archive · #**156** 07-08-2007, 08:17 PM

Posted By: T206Collector

"I strive to be controversial"

Another real problem of your participation on this Board.

Archive · #**157** 07-08-2007, 08:18 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I strive to be the Keith Olbermann of Net54!

I wish I had his collection too.

Archive · #**158** 07-08-2007, 08:20 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Controversy is good.

You can always ignore the controvertial threads if you like.

Archive · #**159** 07-08-2007, 08:21 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

So do I--first thing I would do is get it all graded so we can see how many altered cards he has.

Archive · #**160** 07-08-2007, 10:08 PM

Posted By: boxingcardman

Oh, yes, Jim, I am so glad that I have a beacon like you to point the way to the future...a future of crass, ignorant plastic worship. Uh, excuse me while I decline your invitation.

Good luck and good night.

Archive · #**161** 07-08-2007, 10:31 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

This thread gets sillier every time I open it.

I'm trying to find a metaphor, but there just aren't any that are good enough.

-Al

Archive · #**162** 07-08-2007, 10:59 PM

Posted By: JimB

Jim,
Don't worry. You will never be called the Kieth Olberman of Net54. If that was not a joke about being happy to be associated with Ann Coulter or her views, you are seriously scaring me.
JimB

Archive · #**163** 07-08-2007, 11:12 PM

Posted By: Perry Eaves

Do any of my fellow collectors have any cards slabbed PSA that you "suspect" have a problem that you would like to sell cheap? I'm a buyer as long as they are PSA graded. Dump them now while you can. Seems like on this board you only get respect if you collect an ungraded bent up card. Buy a $5k graded Cobb and you are an investor who is contributing to the downfall of the hobby. Buy an obscure E card with creases and a ripped back and you are a hobby pioneer. I'm not a betting man but with no further knowledge than what i have I will take Jim C's collection over boxingcardmans anyday. Which one contributed to a checklist or considers himself an expert? who cares. Show me the money. PSA has saved this hobby. You read that correctly. PSA has saved the hobby. Anyone that buys a card that doesn't expect or hope that it goes up in price is a liar. Unless you are buying ungraded junk which is worthless anyway and always will be. A PSA 5 is a PSA 5 plain and simple. Not rocket science. They are not always perfect but I will take my chances with a PSA card over a raw card anyday.

Archive · #**164** 07-09-2007, 04:27 AM

Posted By: barrysloate

Why is ungraded "junk" worthless? There are still many people who buy and sell raw cards, and make some money along the way. And if one of the end users wants to eventually get a raw card graded, he can.

You may prefer PSA cards, which is fine, but there is still an active market for raw cards. Personally, I get mine graded by SGC, but I never would tell the other guy his cards are worthless. They're not worthless to him!

Archive · #**165** 07-09-2007, 04:31 AM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I know it's hard.

Learn to grade your own cards.

You might learn something about collecting.

Quit kidding yourself.
You haven't stood up to anything, since you took your first steps.

Archive · #**166** 07-09-2007, 05:08 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Perry Eaves,

"PSA has saved the hobby" "PSA has saved the hobby"

The smartest thing I have read on this board in ages--people conveniently forget that before PSA came the hobby was in shambles as collectors had completely lost faith as to the legitimacy of the cards. PSA brought the confidence back in the market and the rest is history--card prices exploded and we have a vibrant hobby today.
So versus 15 years ago things are much better--just want to keep it that way.

Great post!!!!

Jim

Archive · #**167** 07-09-2007, 05:15 AM

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I think this discussion has now come full circle, and we are back to my original point.

PSA and their competitors have brought the hobby into the 21st century, and have done many good things, but they are sloppy and make too many mistakes. So to repeat my original question: Is it time for the grading services to clean up their act and do a better job?

A Rolls Royce is a fine car but if the transmission is shot it won't run. You have to get it fixed.

Archive · #**168** 07-09-2007, 05:35 AM

Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Perry,

So PSA saved the hobby. That's the company that gave us the set registry, that worthless system that serves only to outrageously drive up prices out of the reach of many true collectors so people who call themselves collectors but are no more than braggarts can extol the grade on their slabs. What's in the slab is ancilliary here, what counts is the slab. That's not collecting, but it gives the Jim Crandells of the world the satisfaction they crave. The fact that a significant number of their vintage (e.g., T206's) 8's are altered doesn't seem to affect their enjoyment of what they own, and heaven forbid they should try to find out which are the altered ones. So they go merrily on their way blasting the rest of us who long for the days when a card was a card and people collected for the pleasure of owning what the card depicted, not the number on the slab. In those forgone years we didn't have idiots who would pay exponentially more for a card that not only was indistinguishable from a "lesser condition" version, but in some cases even possessed characteristics they made it less aesthetically pleasing than the less expensive lower-graded version. So let's all thank PSA for bringing the braggart investors into our hobby who "collect" for reasons having nothing to do with true collecting.

And one more thing, to anticipate the response that don't we need grading companies to ferret out alteratons, well, yes, on that one they could be of use, if of course they had the equipment and expertise to do it. But, what's wrong with a slab that simply says "Unaltered"? Anything after that will be up to the collector to look at what's inside and determine how it meets his/her tastes. Then, and here's another heaven forbid, those people who get their satisfaction by competing with everyone else will be forced to enjoy what they own based on their cards' intrinsic characteristics. And if that is too much to ask, let's all pray to heaven that they get out of our hobby and find another hobby to corrupt.

Archive · #**169** 07-09-2007, 05:46 AM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

The Lazy Lemmings arrived and made a hobby into Da MARK et.

And all you MARK's stand out like a down day at the STOCK MARK ... et.

You MARK's can't think for yourselves.
You NEED the third party to tell you how to BUY and SELL.

Sorry folks, a slight correction is needed in this MARK ... et.
Maybe, just maybe, it will weed out some of the weakness in this hobby/MARK ... et.

I remember it when it was a hobby, and the hobbyist didn't need a third party with the same ratio of errors to think for them.
BUT WAIT..........

There's a New GROUP of better graders, that will help you make up your simple minds as to what to BUY and SELL.

So LINE UP, and be the first kids on the block to get The Betta Graders.

Simple things will amuse the simple mind.

Archive · #**170** 07-09-2007, 05:53 AM

Posted By: barrysloate

Corey expressed my feelings accurately and it now seems the collector who prefers to assemble a collection the old fashioned way is a pariah. Jim disparaged Keith Olbermann's collection, and I couldn't think of too many people who know more or have contributed more to this hobby than Keith. Not only has he written countless articles on vintage card sets, but he has actually used his position on television as a spokesman for the hobby- both what is good about it and what is bad. I would listen to what he has to say a lot more closely than to the so-called new breed collector.

I don't know if Keith reads this board but if he does I'm sure he would have a well-deserved laugh here. And I can assure you if he has a bunch of cards that may be altered he's not sweating over it. He is enjoying what he has as much as anyone else.

Archive · #**171** 07-09-2007, 06:07 AM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

PSA didn't save the hobby. PSA simply created a Registry which served to drive up the value of cards. I'm not sure if that's necessarily a good thing because, after all, now we all have to spend more money for our cards, right?

Archive · #**172** 07-09-2007, 06:17 AM

Posted By: barrysloate

The set registry has allowed wealthy collectors to use card collecting as their bully pulpit. It's not as much about collecting as it is about competing.

Archive · #**173** 07-09-2007, 06:22 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry--not disparaging his collection--I think its great--just his political views which are on the far left of the political spectrum. I would get his stuff graded if I owned it however. I agree with you 100%--PSA brought the hobby into the 21st century and away from the time where anything goes. But it is time for the graders to do a better job. It is the only way forward.

Yeah lets forget about all of the collectors who have now come into the hobby because of PSA. Lets go back to where trimming of cards was widespread and you could not even sell the cards at auction. It wasn't that national dealers led the charge into graded cards--it was that there were no buyers. One knew the system had to change when I started getting calls from major auction houses that the following items received no bids and was I interested in buying the lot at a discount to the opening bid.

Lastly, Corey's arguments appear to be the rants of a man who is sadly seeing the hobby move away from how he remembers it. Lets neglecrt the fact that thousands upon thousands of new collectors have come into the hobby and they love the Set Registry. My recollection is that there are over 20,000 sets on the PSA Set Registry!!!!!!!!! Of course SGC and GAI have their own set registries. Anyone who does not see this as the future has to be wearing blinders.

Archive · #**174** 07-09-2007, 06:42 AM

Posted By: barrysloate

The fact that Keith's views are to the far left does not pertain to this thread, but since you put your two cents in I'll do the same- thank god there is someone out there who is willing to tell the truth about the bozos running this country. There, now we're even.

Not every raw card is trimmed, and not every collector is that obsessed with the issue. There really are collectors out there who collect purely for fun, and they are happy to purchase a VG card and slide it into their binder. They are not lesser collectors, they're not delusional, and they could care less that somebody else has the same card in better condition.

I agree the set registry is here to stay, and that it very well may grow and begin to dominate the market. But Jim, let me make it perfectly clear- not everyone is smitten with it, or the ramifications it has had on the hobby. You collect one way, but it's not the only way.

Archive · #**175** 07-09-2007, 06:44 AM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Jim Crandell:
"Barry--not disparaging his collection--I think its great--just his political views which are on the far left of the political spectrum."

*
*

Keith's political views nailed it.
I fought with the Marines in Korea, what war did you fight in Jimmie boy? ... You're not only a PSA Lemming, but you're also a Sunday Patriot.

Joe Pelaez

Archive · #**176** 07-09-2007, 06:53 AM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

While doing a radio show on a right-wing station, I can assure you that not many people are taken with Ann Coulter. Most of the right wingers recognize that she is a cancer whose views are only designed to advance her own cause - making money for herself.

Archive · #**177** 07-09-2007, 06:58 AM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

That we agree on certain things.

I know I don't.

Archive · #**178** 07-09-2007, 06:58 AM

Posted By: barrysloate

I agree Jeff, but I didn't want to get into it. I think all these right wing fanatics need a reality check. Perhaps collecting baseball cards would offer them a respite from the stresses of daily life.

Archive · #**179** 07-09-2007, 07:13 AM

Posted By: barrysloate

We agree on certain things but we are oil and water and fight too much. Let's just leave it at that.

Archive · #**180** 07-09-2007, 07:28 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Little Joey,

I respect that you fought for our country--but that doesn't make you right on grading cards

It is interesting to see the support that leftist political views get on this board. The demographic would suggest that conservative points of view would prevail on this board--strong defense, low taxes, reduced government spending, pro-life etc but it is interesting that it is seemingly not the case. Must be the anti-establishment streak in collectors.

Barry--I agree--not every raw card is trimmed and there are certainly many ways to collect.

Archive · #**181** 07-09-2007, 07:30 AM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I was under the impression that some of the wars we fought. were for freedom of expression?

If a topic is brought up, one should have the choice of:

1. Reading it, or
2. Not reading it.
3. Answer, or
4. Not answering it.

In my mind:

1. Deleting.
2. Closing. ... AKA lockup.
3. Or any kind of censorship, were precisely the reasons we were fighting the wars about.

This is directed to our beloved fuehrer.

Leon, are you running a dictatorship, or is it simply a Texas style of Democracy?

"The only Thing to Fear, is Fear itself." ..... FDR.

Archive · #**182** 07-09-2007, 07:33 AM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, there is definitely a disconnect on the political views issue. How else can you explain the fact that nearly every talk radio station that does well is conservative-based? Yet most newspapers have a liberal bent? And if the conservative viewpoints were prevailing how do you explain the fact that the Senate and Congress are Democratically controlled?

Archive · #**183** 07-09-2007, 07:35 AM

Posted By: boxingcardman

Yeah, I figured it would come down to that eventually. Thanks Perry for showing the true colors of the plastic worshippers. It's all about the Benjamins, isn't it?

And PSA saved the hobby? That's a laugh. The hobby was doing just dandy without PSA. There were shows every weekend in major cities, unprecedented National attendance, and a nice strong market. Of course if you hadn't taken the time to develop the technical expertise to evaluate a purchase you certainly were vulnerable to buying a trimmed card. Guess what: you still are, but it will cost you a lot more money and come entombed in a slab. PSA was, is and always will be a money-making business designed to scare the naive and the inexperienced. It is brilliant marketing, don't get me wrong, but the savior of the hobby? Not.

Archive · #**184** 07-09-2007, 07:40 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

Hard to explain. Newspapers represent old media--talk shows new media. People here like Keith O but his ratings are just a fraction of other cable shows.

I think the Republican wipeout last election represented public dissatisfaction over the war in Iraq. I think overall the country is a moderate-to-conservative one but the changes in the demographics of the country could be changing this.

Also accept you opinion that Ann not popular.

Jim

Archive · #**185** 07-09-2007, 07:43 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Boxing Guy,

All I can say is you have a lot to learn but no use continuing this with you.

Archive · #**186** 07-09-2007, 07:47 AM

Posted By: jeff kolby

Do the grading companies keep in-house records or statistical breakdowns of which issues are the most susceptible to alteration and the percentages of cards that are rejected? By now they must have a lot of data from which some interesting patterns and trends would emerge. This information may be useful to collectors and help them make better decisions, if it were made available to them.

Archive · #**187** 07-09-2007, 08:01 AM

Posted By: barrysloate

I think 200 posts is a lock- anyone up for 250?

Archive · #**188** 07-09-2007, 08:05 AM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

It's the best exposee into the PSA Lemming mind...........

Don't hold back Lemmings ...

Keep talkin .........

Let it all hang out ..............

Hope you NEWBIES are listening.

Archive · #**189** 07-09-2007, 08:07 AM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, I agree with you on the reason for the Democratic sweep last year. What is surprising to me, however, is the low poll ratings Bush gets from Republicans.

Archive · #**190** 07-09-2007, 08:10 AM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

He's a Parrot! ................

Archive · #**191** 07-09-2007, 08:15 AM

Posted By: leon

First of all I don't think there is anything else I can add to this argument that I haven't said already. I don't think the grading system is broken. They do a fine job overall especially the one I always go with. I am comfortable with what I do. As to Joe P's comments about me being a dictator. .....I think my business card says it all....though I still think I try to be as fair as possible I know my role....

Archive · #**192** 07-09-2007, 08:16 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

I think it all comes back to Iraq--Republicans don't support the Iraq strategy and its the biggest issue with many people. We have a great economy, a great stock market and this would normally favor a Republican incumbent.

Archive · #**193** 07-09-2007, 08:22 AM

Posted By: Dan Kravitz

If Jim C did not post on this thread, it would not have gone 100. For some reason, Jim brings out some interesting feelings among the group.

I'm comfortable with Jim collecting high grade PSA cards. It's almost a seperate hobby from most of us. Think about it... I will never go head to head with anyone who collects high grade PSA cards. Almost all of the cards that I collect are not available in high grade and if they were would be way out of my price range anyway.

We all have vintage cards in common, but our values are different. I think one day high grade cards will be exposed for what they really are. When that happens, I hope you really like your PSA slabs. The slab may be worth as much as the cardboard.

Dan Kravitz

Archive · #**194** 07-09-2007, 08:22 AM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Come on guys.

Ann wasn't even popular when she worked as one of Heidi's girls.

Archive · #**195** 07-09-2007, 08:29 AM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Luv that card.

Archive · #**196** 07-09-2007, 08:35 AM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, I think you're right about the dissatisfaction with how Bush handled Iraq as being the sole cause of the dissent -- not just the war itself but the way the White House has handled it.

What bothers me about Coulter is that she is clearly intelligent but, instead of trying to get more moderates into the Republican fold - which would actually help the Republican party she claims to support - she vilifies and alienates the moderates in the most scandalous manner solely to draw attention to herself for her own personal gain. I consider that to be dishonest at best and evil at worst. The bottom line is that she does not help the Republican Party, she hurts it. For that reason alone she should be metaphorically lynched by her own party.

Archive · #**197** 07-09-2007, 08:38 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

Leon's advertisers pay me to drive the hits to the website--

Archive · #**198** 07-09-2007, 08:42 AM

Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Jim - You're doing a fine job.

Jeff - My feelings exactly about Ann, although I'm strangely attracted to her.

Archive · #**199** 07-09-2007, 08:42 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff--fair points--each party has their far left or far right zealots and Coulter does not help the Republican party other than firing up its base. Sort of the Mike Moore of the Republican party. I am sure you could find some on this board who support Moore.

Archive · #**200** 07-09-2007, 09:08 AM

Posted By: JimB

"I fought with the Marines in Korea, what war did you fight in Jimmie boy? ... You're not only a PSA Lemming, but you're also a Sunday Patriot."

And I thought patriotism was determined by the number of Grateful Dead shows a person attended.
JimB

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