1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381 Marlboro Errors - 30 Years Later

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Nice cards. I thought I had one of those but when it showed up it was a regular box. In hand do the look like the weird red box cards that you can also clearly see the word Marlboro? Just blue instead of red.

Thanks, Ben. It's actually a little different. On these it's almost like the word Marlboro is stenciled out. Sort of like tint all around (including a bit on Randy's ear) but not over the letters.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Thanks, Ben. It's actually a little different. On these it's almost like the word Marlboro is stenciled out. Sort of like tint all around (including a bit on Randy's ear) but not over the letters.

Stenciled out is a great way of describing it. To me that also describes the one type of red box cards.

I will have to take a better look later when I am not using my phone. My old eyes don't always work the best on my cheap phone.

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by steve5838

I was thinking the same thing and actually tracked down and reached out to the shop owner several days ago. Other than the clear one, the hand collated sets had four other cards where you could read the Marlboro sign. One was a "g1", one was a "rb2", and the other two were the "blue box" version that you own. I purchased the two "blue box" ones from him for $200 each ($400 total). I don't know whether this is a good deal or not (I don't think the cards will grade particularly high and will likely get the "Ad Partially Obscured" label) but I'm very happy with the purchase since I've been trying to track down this version for quite awhile. In case you're interested, I've attached two pictures of each card.Steve

Wow! Wow! Wow! You found 2!! Those are gorgeous cards and they more than likely came from the same case as that clear! That’s unreal. PSA’s labeling is wrong to start and then they apply the labels inconsistently, so you shouldn’t care too much about that. I’ll take one from you for $200 to ease your worries of over paying.

[hockeyhockey]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

Wow! Wow! Wow! You found 2!! Those are gorgeous cards and they more than likely came from the same case as that clear! That’s unreal. PSA’s labeling is wrong to start and then they apply the labels inconsistently, so you shouldn’t care too much about that. I’ll take one from you for $200 to ease your worries of over paying.

PSA makes no sense with these cards, no doubt. i'd love to get a detailed explanation as to what is "obscured" and what isn't. i have cards that for sure looked like marlboro that were tagged obscured...and then you see ones for sale that are obscured and can't see any of the sign.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by hockeyhockey

on the back of the boggs, next to "throws right" is a giant dot on almost all of the cards. i've never seen one without the dot, but sounds like ben has a handful of them.

Thanks!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by hockeyhockey

PSA makes no sense with these cards, no doubt. i'd love to get a detailed explanation as to what is "obscured" and what isn't. i have cards that for sure looked like marlboro that were tagged obscured...and then you see ones for sale that are obscured and can't see any of the sign.

My favorite are the Marlboro box and dark tint cards PSA labeled as Ad Completely Blocked Out. I have bought several over the years for next to nothing.

This thread is awesome, only bad part is sometimes I get that urge to go after them again. Luckily so far I have not given in to the urge.

Steve with all your great posts you should put the post # of your break down picture of the different versions in your signature. Then it would appear at the bottom of all your posts. I know it would make it way easier for people(me) reading this thread to find it.

[Statfreak101]

A few months ago I picked up a PSA version that is listed "1989 Fleer Glossy, Randy Johnson, Ad Partially Obscured."

The funny thing - it isn't a glossy, and it isn't an ad partially obscured. It is a Black Box with the regular yellow back.

I will have to post pictures of it sometime when I pull it out.

[steve5838]

In case anyone is interested, here is another closeup of the blue box version. It seems to have a lack of dark blue tint over the areas with the lettering and the cowboy. I keep imagining taking this blue box version and replacing the light green color with very dark reddish/black tint and replacing the dark blue color with green tint. Would this lead to the "g1" and "gb2" versions? The shape of the "cutout" around the cowboy seems pretty similar.

Steve
(my stab at organizing some of the versions in post #143)

[steve B]

The way they probably did that blue box would be by cutting a hole in the mask for the cyan plate, making a cyan rectangle. The formerly red area ends up dark blue/purple because of the red overlay. and the rest is greenish where yellow would have been part of the sign.

Where it meets the ear you can see how the cyan has no halftone dot pattern.

Scribbles were probably done on the press by scratching or scuffing the plate.

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by steve B

The way they probably did that blue box would be by cutting a hole in the mask for the cyan plate, making a cyan rectangle. The formerly red area ends up dark blue/purple because of the red overlay. and the rest is greenish where yellow would have been part of the sign.

Where it meets the ear you can see how the cyan has no halftone dot pattern.

Scribbles were probably done on the press by scratching or scuffing the plate.

You da man Steve B! I really appreciate you providing your invaluable perspective on these!

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by steve B

The way they probably did that blue box would be by cutting a hole in the mask for the cyan plate, making a cyan rectangle. The formerly red area ends up dark blue/purple because of the red overlay. and the rest is greenish where yellow would have been part of the sign.

Where it meets the ear you can see how the cyan has no halftone dot pattern.

Scribbles were probably done on the press by scratching or scuffing the plate.

Awesome! This really helps me better understand the process. Thank you!

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by steve5838

In case anyone is interested, here is another closeup of the blue box version. It seems to have a lack of dark blue tint over the areas with the lettering and the cowboy. I keep imagining taking this blue box version and replacing the light green color with very dark reddish/black tint and replacing the dark blue color with green tint. Would this lead to the "g1" and "gb2" versions? The shape of the "cutout" around the cowboy seems pretty similar.

Steve
(my stab at organizing some of the versions in post #143)

I think this is my favorite of the versions that get lumped into "box" varieties. I've picked up a few listed as such.

[jacksoncoupage]

Updated the JunkWaxGems entry for this nightmare fun card.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ro-variations/

steve5838 - I've used your stencil close-up pic, I will remove or credit if you would like.

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

Updated the JunkWaxGems entry for this nightmare fun card.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ro-variations/

steve5838 - I've used your stencil close-up pic, I will remove or credit if you would like.

Thank you for making this public again. I can say with 100% certainty that your site helped lead me into collecting these cards and established the foundation for what I know about the variations.

The actual way Fleer manufactured the cards is basically a combination of what you have mentioned and the way Steve has his chart setup. I was messaging with Steve some today and mentioned this to him as well. Trying to figure out what Fleer did to make these variations has been one of my main goals after starting to collect the cards and is also one of my favorite aspects about these cards and is what makes them so fun and unique to collect. I don't want to ruin this aspect for others, but its probably best after all these years to have the mystery solved.

Before I get further into the details of the true manner in which Fleer created the errors, I wanted to take a step back and describe some of the basics of the cards and what my experience was like building a collection of them. It might take me a couple days to get a post together and it might be kind of lengthy, but it should be informative.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

Thank you for making this public again. I can say with 100% certainty that your site helped lead me into collecting these cards and established the foundation for what I know about the variations.

The actual way Fleer manufactured the cards is basically a combination of what you have mentioned and the way Steve has his chart setup. I was messaging with Steve some today and mentioned this to him as well. Trying to figure out what Fleer did to make these variations has been one of my main goals after starting to collect the cards and is also one of my favorite aspects about these cards and is what makes them so fun and unique to collect. I don't want to ruin this aspect for others, but its probably best after all these years to have the mystery solved.

Before I get further into the details of the true manner in which Fleer created the errors, I wanted to take a step back and describe some of the basics of the cards and what my experience was like building a collection of them. It might take me a couple days to get a post together and it might be kind of lengthy, but it should be informative.

I will say this: if I hadn't lost the password to the block, it would've been public again a while back. It is still my goal to make the blog entry the most accessible summary of the card. I will leave it up to those who discover it or start collecting it to find forum discussions like this if they'd like to dive further into them beyond my "easy-to-understand" thirteen types.

The images included, from 2009 or so are no longer in my possession. I have long sold all of them and rebuilt the collection (twice now...) but what I would give for a few of them back! I'd love to include more close up pics of some of the more unusual or rare types if anyone wishes to submit them.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

Updated the JunkWaxGems entry for this nightmare fun card.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ro-variations/

steve5838 - I've used your stencil close-up pic, I will remove or credit if you would like.

Yay! Thanks for making this incredible resource available again. You've made my day! No need to credit anything. Just happy to have a copy of the version in my collection now.

Steve

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Yay! Thanks for making this incredible resource available again. You've made my day! No need to credit anything. Just happy to have a copy of the version in my collection now.

Steve

Incredible, you say? Thank you.

I mentioned above that if you or anyone else wants to contribute similar focused pics of some of the rarer or less-frequently seen versions, I'd love to add them to the blog. Perhaps just a few more of the truly unusual.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

Thank you for making this public again. I can say with 100% certainty that your site helped lead me into collecting these cards and established the foundation for what I know about the variations.

The actual way Fleer manufactured the cards is basically a combination of what you have mentioned and the way Steve has his chart setup. I was messaging with Steve some today and mentioned this to him as well. Trying to figure out what Fleer did to make these variations has been one of my main goals after starting to collect the cards and is also one of my favorite aspects about these cards and is what makes them so fun and unique to collect. I don't want to ruin this aspect for others, but its probably best after all these years to have the mystery solved.

Before I get further into the details of the true manner in which Fleer created the errors, I wanted to take a step back and describe some of the basics of the cards and what my experience was like building a collection of them. It might take me a couple days to get a post together and it might be kind of lengthy, but it should be informative.

I personally can't wait. Thank you!

[Hatorade]

Here is a scan and photo of the blue box I have next to a "negative" version.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

Incredible, you say? Thank you.

I mentioned above that if you or anyone else wants to contribute similar focused pics of some of the rarer or less-frequently seen versions, I'd love to add them to the blog. Perhaps just a few more of the truly unusual.

Sure. Here is a close up of the sign on the blue/aqua tint one. Feel free to crop however you need to. If you need a higher resolution image just let me know how to get it to you.

Steve

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Sure. Here is a close up of the sign on the blue/aqua tint one. Feel free to crop however you need to. If you need a higher resolution image just let me know how to get it to you.

Steve

Thank you, this is really great. I don't have a scanner currently but I would like to add similar pics for the green scribble cards. I have one posted on the blog, would you be able to post the other? Or likely, "others" if you have them? I find them and their differing shapes of blackout to be among the more interesting of the correction types.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

Thank you, this is really great. I don't have a scanner currently but I would like to add similar pics for the green scribble cards. I have one posted on the blog, would you be able to post the other? Or likely, "others" if you have them? I find them and their differing shapes of blackout to be among the more interesting of the correction types.

I'm sorry but I can help on the green scribble cards. I believe others (Hatorade, Kevin, Ben,...) have much more comprehensive collections than I do. My collection has focused on those versions that would likely be labeled as "Ad on Scoreboard" by PSA. Even though I have multiple copies of these versions with relatively clear lettering, I don't have a "complete" collection with all the box and scribble versions. This is part of the reason the diagram I put together is only built out so far.

[jacksoncoupage]

OK, the RJ Marlboro blog has been updated to reflect current info, remove the outdated info and added several new hi res, close-up pics of some of the more interesting variations.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ro-variations/

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

OK, the RJ Marlboro blog has been updated to reflect current info, remove the outdated info and added several new hi res, close-up pics of some of the more interesting variations.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ro-variations/

I still have a decent stack of the green scribbles. I will look through them tomorrow and try to get good pics of the different ones I have for you.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I still have a decent stack of the green scribbles. I will look through them tomorrow and try to get good pics of the different ones I have for you.

Check the updated blog. I was able to get a few scanned in after all. If you have one that is noticeably different than what I've shown, please do send along. Same with any strange or stand-out "red" versions.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

Check the updated blog. I was able to get a few scanned in after all. If you have one that is noticeably different than what I've shown, please do send along. Same with any strange or stand-out "red" versions.

Unfortunately I have way too many cards and can't find my green scribbles. I went to your site and the top one I call the blob because it is a blob that covers the entire word Marlboro. The bottom one I call the blob with a scribble. To me it looks to have the same blob but with a darker scribble through the middle. The 3rd version is just the scribble section because you can see the tops of the l and b in Marlboro. When I was super collecting them the last version was by far the hardest for me to track down.

Next time I am digging through stuff and find them I will add a picture.

[jacksoncoupage]

Just a few recent pickups. The top right has a distinct shape over the Marlboro lettering and a dark green tint over the rest of the sign. Not very visible in this photo.

[bnorth]

deleted

[bnorth]

The sun finally come out in full force so I got better pics of the one that looks like it shows the top of the l and b and to one that is similar but doesn't have the distinct tops of the l and b. What do you guys think and have you ever seen the top one before? I know when I heard it existed it took me a very long time to track it down.

[hockeyhockey]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/36356820825...p2047675.l2557


what's the fascination with this particular randy? is that one of those blue tint ones you guys were referring to?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by hockeyhockey

https://www.ebay.com/itm/36356820825...p2047675.l2557


what's the fascination with this particular randy? is that one of those blue tint ones you guys were referring to?

It looks to be a blue one. I have found they can look blue on your computer. Then when it arrives it isn't.

The blue ones seem to be a very recent addition. Seems weird that none showed up for decades and now they are showing up in numbers. Hopefully for those that paid big bucks a large stash doesn't hit the market and make them worth WAY less.

[steve5838]

The thing that intrigues me so much about this blue box negative/stencil version is how the Marlboro lettering can appear or fade away with your focus. It is similar with the red negative version but more apparent here due to better contrast between the blue and green colors. The dark blue on this one is in your face immediately but then I need to focus on the sign for the lettering to become clear. I've always considered these cards works of art and this is just another example. It is just cool to me. The other interesting aspect of the card to me is that the centering and offset of the top diagonal bar ("overlap" using Hatorade's terminology) on the ones that I picked up were so close to the centering and diagonal bar overlap on the clear version cards. Maybe it is pure coincidence but as others pointed out, it suggests the blue box stencil may have come out of the same case as the clear one. Interestingly the centering and left side cut on the blue box card on eBay seems to be more similar to Hatorade's example than to the two I bought. It makes me wonder if the next clear one will turn up with this centering and rough left edge cut.

At this point I am only aware of 4 blue box negative/stencil cards (Hatorade's PSA 9, the two I purchased from the card shop owner who had the clear version, and this one) so absolute numbers so far are still quite low - albeit clustered on recent pickups. I'm not as worried about hoarders flooding the market since we have a lot of those here (me included to some extent) that have been trying to track down blue versions for some time with only limited luck. I actually want more blue ones in my collection! It would make sense that someone holding this card would have listed now given recent attention to the version in this thread. Increased attention and recent high sale prices may (hopefully) motivate more to come out of the woodwork. In any case, the current count for the blue box negative/stencil appears similar to the blue/aqua tint version. That said, this version is a little more subtle than the clear or blue/aqua tint cards.. so it is more likely these could be buried away unnoticed in pcs.

Last year so many early 1989 fleer wax cases seemed to come up for sale... I am curious how many of them were actually opened and what was pulled. With grading services halted many of the cards pulled from those cases may not be graded yet. If the clear and blue versions occured at the very start of production I would bet more graded examples could come to market over the next year.

I'm not convinced the blue box stencil version has the resale potential of the clear or blue/aqua tint cards but given there have been so few sightings over the last 10+ years I can't believe it is not rare and important. My semi uneducated guess puts this at the #3 in rarity after the clear and blue/aqua tint... but who knows.

Steve

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The sun finally come out in full force so I got better pics of the one that looks like it shows the top of the l and b and to one that is similar but doesn't have the distinct tops of the l and b. What do you guys think and have you ever seen the top one before? I know when I heard it existed it took me a very long time to track it down.

Nice pictures, Ben! They really highlight the differences among these scribble versions.

[steve5838]

In case anyone is interested, here is a picture of one of the blue stencil version cards I bought from the card shop owner with the clear one (lower pic) and the decidedly darker blue (more box like) stencil version card I purchased on eBay (upper pic). The scan was of both cards at once.

My question is whether there is any relationship between these stencil/negative cards and the other versions? Compare the cutout pattern in the top picture to "g1" where the top part of the cowboy is obscured. Which version would go along with the cutout pattern in the lower picture (where the top of the blue pattern "cover up" doesn't extend to the top of the cowboy)?

Steve

[Athos01]

Hi Steve - nice pics! I don't see these versions in your current matrix. These boxed versions are very early, short-run corrections that Fleer applied to the Marlboro sign.

[hockeyhockey]

wow steve, those are very cool. never seen that before.

[Statfreak101]

Originally Posted by Athos01

Hi Steve - nice pics! I don't see these versions in your current matrix. These boxed versions are very early, short-run corrections that Fleer applied to the Marlboro sign.

Do you have this confirmed? In terms of "very early", what time frame are you exactly referring to?

[Athos01]

By early, I'm referring to Fleer case codes around the 833XX or 834XX time frame. I'm not sure I have seen any cases earlier than 8324X, so these were definitely made early-on in the Johnson correction timeframe. But, it is very key to remember that the entire timeframe for the Johnson corrections was far shorter than the Bill Ripken correction timeframe. The Johnson cards were all fully blacked out ads prior to Fleer even touching the Ripken FF cards.

[steve5838]

Yes, it was me. I was holding off on this post until I had the card in hand and it was paid for. I had actually written up something last month but decided to wait before posting in on this board. Now that it's paid for I am happy with how everything worked out and wanted to share "the rest of the story" (even though there isn't really that much more to add) for anyone that is interested.

Anyway, here is the timeline... once David posted the picture of the 3rd graded clear one here on Net54 (in post #195 at 4:24 pm on Friday 9/24), I went back to FB and this time was able to see a public post by the card shop owner showing the card. I messaged the owner Friday evening, gave him my personal email and asked if he was interested in selling. Saturday morning a little after 10 am I received response that "the card is hitting the market today. 15k obo." Within a half hour or so, I made a low ball offer but he said no he already had an offer @ 12k. After some back and forth I told him I could do 13k and call in payment that day if he wanted an easy sale and he accepted. By the time David and Ben posted (#202, #203) late Saturday morning it was already a done deal. It is by far the most I have ever spent on a card, but for me there isn't a card I would want more.

So that is the story. After that it wasn't hard to follow up on the other RJ's in the hand collated sets - which made things even better with those blue stencil cards. Whether the deal is crazy to others or not, I guess it doesn't really matter -- there are plenty of things I don't understand why people spend their money on (I guess I already mentioned why the whole thing made sense to me back in post #211). I can't put into words exactly how or why this clear version is so fascinating to me but it is.

Of course, there was some pain involved here too... over the last month and a half I sold almost half my PC to make this happen. Having the heads up about this card from statfreak101 before it was graded/listed gave me time to mentally prepare/work through what I would be willing to "sell/trade" for it so I could make a quick move on the card when it was listed (and for that I am very grateful).

So that's it... I couldn't be happier with how it turned out. For anyone interested here are pictures of my two clear cards side by side - together in the same scan.

Steve

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Yes, it was me. I was holding off on this post until I had the card in hand and it was paid for. I had actually written up something last month but decided to wait before posting in on this board. Now that it's paid for I am happy with how everything worked out and wanted to share "the rest of the story" (even though there isn't really that much more to add) for anyone that is interested.

Anyway, here is the timeline... once David posted the picture of the 3rd graded clear one here on Net54 (in post #195 at 4:24 pm on Friday 9/24), I went back to FB and this time was able to see a public post by the card shop owner showing the card. I messaged the owner Friday evening, gave him my personal email and asked if he was interested in selling. Saturday morning a little after 10 am I received response that "the card is hitting the market today. 15k obo." Within a half hour or so, I made a low ball offer but he said no he already had an offer @ 12k. After some back and forth I told him I could do 13k and call in payment that day if he wanted an easy sale and he accepted. By the time David and Ben posted (#202, #203) late Saturday morning it was already a done deal. It is by far the most I have ever spent on a card, but for me there isn't a card I would want more.

So that is the story. After that it wasn't hard to follow up on the other RJ's in the hand collated sets - which made things even better with those blue stencil cards. Whether the deal is crazy to others or not, I guess it doesn't really matter -- there are plenty of things I don't understand why people spend their money on (I guess I already mentioned why the whole thing made sense to me back in post #211). I can't put into words exactly how or why this clear version is so fascinating to me but it is.

Of course, there was some pain involved here too... over the last month and a half I sold almost half my PC to make this happen. Having the heads up about this card from statfreak101 before it was graded/listed gave me time to mentally prepare/work through what I would be willing to "sell/trade" for it so I could make a quick move on the card when it was listed (and for that I am very grateful).

So that's it... I couldn't be happier with how it turned out. For anyone interested here are pictures of my two clear cards side by side - together in the same scan.

Steve

That is great that it ended up with someone who really wants to own it. Congratulations on a amazing card.

[hockeyhockey]

amazing! thanks for sharing those pics

[Athos01]

Absolutely awesome, I'm glad the card is going to a good home and a true collector! Congrats Steve!!!

[bnorth]

Was digging through piles of cards today and found this cool Randy Johnson. It is the corrected version with the color bar still attached.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by Athos01

Hi Steve - nice pics! I don't see these versions in your current matrix. These boxed versions are very early, short-run corrections that Fleer applied to the Marlboro sign.

Thanks, Kevin. I believe the darker blue (more box like) stencil/negative version card in the upper pic is the one shown in the bottom row of the matrix (with the yellow border around the picture). When I put together the matrix I didn't own one of these cards and added the yellow border to indicate that this was not one of mine (it is a picture of Hatorade's blue stencil/negative card). I haven't added the lighter blue stencil/negative version into the figure yet but I think positioning in the matrix would be similar.

[lowpopper]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313796345116

Can we precisely identify which version this is?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by lowpopper

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313796345116

Can we precisely identify which version this is?

Not sure the exact name but it is the second clearest version. There are several posted in this thread and can usually easily be found on eBay. I posted my PSA 9 that I paid around $20 for. Not sure of the exact current value but for a raw one $9500 might be a little overpriced.

[lowpopper]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Not sure the exact name but it is the second clearest version. There are several posted in this thread and can usually easily be found on eBay. I posted my PSA 9 that I paid around $20 for. Not sure of the exact current value but for a raw one $9500 might be a little overpriced.

Lol I wasn’t sure what it was. Had to put some juice on it

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by lowpopper

Lol I wasn’t sure what it was. Had to put some juice on it

Get it in a PSA 9 or 10 slab. Slabbed they are pulling really good money. 2 years ago you couldn't hardly give the Johnson Marlboro cards away. Now they are going for crazy money in some cases.

I would love to have my PSA 9(same version) back to sell at the prices now. I looked and I paid $9 for it.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by lowpopper

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313796345116

Can we precisely identify which version this is?

This is what I've referred to as the "br2" version. I'm very familiar with the version. With a good light source it is the second clearest version.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Not sure the exact name but it is the second clearest version. There are several posted in this thread and can usually easily be found on eBay. I posted my PSA 9 that I paid around $20 for. Not sure of the exact current value but for a raw one $9500 might be a little overpriced.

Originally Posted by steve5838

This is what I've referred to as the "br2" version. I'm very familiar with the version. With a good light source it is the second clearest version.

Until Kevin's clear version turned up, this is what was always referred to as the "first" version, the original Marlboro error.

I dont see them much anymore, would love to own one again but this is well out of my range.