not exactly pre-war, but can someone explain why Mike Witt auto's are so expensive?

[novakjr]

Title really says it all. As part of my autograph collection, for now I've mostly focused on Hall of Famers, Cleveland Indians greats, and Perfect game pitchers. One strange thing I've come across is how expensive Mike Witt's auto's are. Did I miss something? Does he just not sign much? Or does he generally charge a ridiculous amount when he does sign? Hell, even PSA slabbed 3x5's seemed to going for over $100.. This just seems crazy for a living, modern player with a seemingly average career.

One other question about another modern player. Does anyone know how long Tim Raines signed his stuff using Tim "Rock" Raines? Or is that just more of a requested inscription?

[whitey19thcentury]

Witt falls into the category of Randy Myers, Pete Vuckovich, etc.: players from the last 20-30 years who are still living but have become/are notorius tough signers. I have see Vuck turn down numerous autograph requests.

I just sold a playing career-era Witt 3x5 for a bargain price last week on eBay.

Hope this helps

Russ

[novakjr]

Thanks Whitey. I was going to bid on that 3x5 Witt you had, but got tied up and missed it. I couldn't believe how low it went.

[mr2686]

I have seen 8x10's go for reasonable prices, but cards and balls seem especially high. I also know he doesn't sign by mail.

[thxforthebp]

I dont know if it is out there but it would be great to complile a list of guys who fall into this catagory.

[roarfrom34]

Simple Economics 101 at work:

Supply & Demand

[whitey19thcentury]

Originally Posted by thxforthebp

I dont know if it is out there but it would be great to complile a list of guys who fall into this catagory.

Wow....this could get interesting. There are numerous guys out there who have debuted within the last 30 or so years that are downright difficult. Many of those are cup of coffee guys, or guys long forgotten.

This list could get long, especially when considering the amount of Latin/foreign players who have made their debuts over this time span. A lot of those guys are nearly impossible to get as they returned to their homeland after their careers are over.

I have collectors sending me wantlists for 3x5s collections and the majority include Latin players from the 80s-present day. Many, I haven't heard of or have forgotten about.

I guess it all comes down to what medium you collect/want signed. Most guys won't sign anything, while a lot of current players refuse to sign 3x5s.

I have seen that with my own eyes. Still kinda unbelievable to me.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by whitey19thcentury

Wow....this could get interesting. There are numerous guys out there who have debuted within the last 30 or so years that are downright difficult. Many of those are cup of coffee guys, or guys long forgotten.

This list could get long, especially when considering the amount of Latin/foreign players who have made their debuts over this time span. A lot of those guys are nearly impossible to get as they returned to their homeland after their careers are over.

I have collectors sending me wantlists for 3x5s collections and the majority include Latin players from the 80s-present day. Many, I haven't heard of or have forgotten about.

I guess it all comes down to what medium you collect/want signed. Most guys won't sign anything, while a lot of current players refuse to sign 3x5s.

I have seen that with my own eyes. Still kinda unbelievable to me.

Maybe this should get limited to guys that have at least some noteworthy reasoning behind people wanting an autograph from.

[Big Six]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Title really says it all. As part of my autograph collection, for now I've mostly focused on Hall of Famers, Cleveland Indians greats, and Perfect game pitchers. One strange thing I've come across is how expensive Mike Witt's auto's are. Did I miss something? Does he just not sign much? Or does he generally charge a ridiculous amount when he does sign? Hell, even PSA slabbed 3x5's seemed to going for over $100.. This just seems crazy for a living, modern player with a seemingly average career.

One other question about another modern player. Does anyone know how long Tim Raines signed his stuff using Tim "Rock" Raines? Or is that just more of a requested inscription?

Tim signed "Rock" for me last year per my request at a Newark bears game...great guy!

[whitey19thcentury]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Maybe this should get limited to guys that have at least some noteworthy reasoning behind people wanting an autograph from.

I agree, but there are collectors of teams, debut years, hometowns/states, and foreign collectors out there who collect players others deem as not noteworthy or not on the same level, playing-career wise, as say a Vuckovich, Witt, Myers, etc.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I am not a huge autograph guy but do enjoy getting them.

Doesn't the new edition of Meiselman's list have a section on tough signers?

I had the pleasure of working with notorius toughie Dr. Mike Marshall back in the 1980s. He would soften up every once in a while but just thought signing was silly.

[steve B]

I seem to recall there was another very tough signer - early 80's or so - who had a decently long career. I'm thinking Wayne Nordhagen but I could be very wrong?

I recall a story about someone wanting that autograph in any form and sending him a check for some then silly amount and having it returned uncashed and with no letter or note.

Steve B

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

It can't be Nordhagen; he's been a great signer over the years, although his recent response rate has been somewhat unpredictable (most likely due to an address change or two). Perhaps you're thinking of Doug Flynn or Ricky Wright.

Witt and Vuckavich aren't tough autographs. Both have done multiple paid signings. They get expensive when you're looking for the "perfect" piece, however. They can be a real pain for collectors of signed sets of gum cards.

The last I heard was that Witt was even done with private signings, but these things can always change for one reason or another. He may wish to support a charity (or just want more money in his bank account) sometime down the road.

For a non-HOF player who has already autographed a ton of material, Vuck certainly charges enough to sign. "Expensive" certainly doesn't equal "rare" in his case. He has a touch of the Dr. Mike syndrome.

[scooter729]

I collected autographs for many years in the 80s - 90s at Fenway, so I have a good portion of American Leaguers during that era.

I'd love to see thoughts from others as to tough autographs from the 80s and 90s. I had no idea about Witt, but certainly will now have to dig through and see what I have from him!

[mcgwirecom]

Mike Witt is one of the Prefect Game Pitchers Club. Sometimes players will increase their prices knowing that everyone needs them for their Perfect Game ball or ticket or collection. I have done two different Perfect Game balls. I think both times I was able to get Mike several years back. I don't think I paid too much for him. But I remember trying to get Kenny Rogers. The first time was tough. He didn't do signings and when he did I think he charged over $100. On the second ball I was able to send it to a YMCA signing in Georgia and the guy running it promised to get it signed for me for $25. I was pretty happy. But when I got it back Kenny had signed upside down compared to others on the panel he signed. I feel he did it on purpouse. I have noticed that once a guy throws a Perfect Game his price immediately goes up. At least for that first signing after the event.

[Vintagedegu]

-

[Exhibitman]

I think we will see more and more difficult guys in the future.

1. The money from a career is so good that many of them have no need to pimp themselves out to make a living. A lot of the old time players made only a decent wage and had to generate income, a void that card shows filled nicely.

2. The degree of insulation that a ballplayer has from every day life as a result of the money and the way they travel and train means that the younger ones never develop a taste or respect for fan interactions. Players increasingly live and operate completely removed from fans. If they don't find fan interaction--ballpark encounters, spring training meetings, public relations appearances, fan mail responses--to be part of their job good luck convincing them to do something for fans after they retire.

3. The fact that we care indirectly creates its own disincentive to signing. I can appreciate that some people find the whole money-autograph-marketing thing to be distasteful and don't want to participate in it (at least until the money is too good to pass up or the cause is so good that they feel bad saying no).

[whitey19thcentury]

Originally Posted by Vintagedegu

John Denny is somewhat Vukovichish, been doing the occasional signing lately however.

Sammy Stewart and the Reds' Frank Williams fell into that 'vanished into nothingness' category. I think Williams is dead now. Believe Cameron or one of those guys hunted Sammy down.

Didn't realize Witt was so tough anymore. Got a Gateway cover of him a few years back as an afterthought.

Denny has become a better signer over the past several years. I remember when I really narrowed down my interest to autographs in between my freshman and soph. years of college. I purchased a huge in-person 3x5, card, photo, etc. collection from an area man who got sigs at ballparks and spring training games. It was 1998, so eBay was in its infancy. I sold off all of the "name" players/HOFers, then I figured "what the heck!" and started listing "common" 3x5s. I think I got like 60 bucks for a Denny 3x5. That really started me in researching obscure guys, and now, 13 years later, I specialize in obscure deceased, Latin, and living players.

On a side note, the guy whose collection I purchased had a 3x5 signed by Alberto Lois, arguably the toughest sig among the 1979 Pirates team. I sold his 3x5 for $55 or so on eBay in '98. Fast forward half a decade later, and I was fortunate enough to buy quite a few lots from the MacAllister collection. Among one of the 3x5 lots I bought was no less than 30 Lois 3x5s! The last one I sold on eBay went for $5. So, yes, I saturated the market on those!

[whitey19thcentury]

Originally Posted by JBirkholm

Witt and Vuckavich aren't tough autographs. Both have done multiple paid signings. They get expensive when you're looking for the "perfect" piece, however. They can be a real pain for collectors of signed sets of gum cards.


For a non-HOF player who has already autographed a ton of material, Vuck certainly charges enough to sign. "Expensive" certainly doesn't equal "rare" in his case. He has a touch of the Dr. Mike syndrome.

Jodi, I agree that there Vuck is not a "rare" sig, but he is a tough signer present day. I am a Pirates season ticket holder (insert comment here, I know), anyways, I have seen him at events and know people who run into him, and he just doesn't sign for free to this day.

Kind of like Lynn Swann. My wife and I were at a fundraising dinner for him right before he officially announced he was running for Gov. of Pennsylvania. We got there early, and literally it was me, my wife, Swann, and l3 or 4 other couples and the wait staff. He came over and talked to us as nice as can be and posed for a picture with us. I didn't even ask for an autograph because: 1.) I know how he is and 2.) as big as an icon he is, I just don't really get into that sort of signature.

Anyways, one of the waitresses comes over, piece of paper and pen in hand and asks him for an autograph. His reply: "Ma'am, sorry, I don't sign autographs. If I sign one for you, then I'd have to sign one for everybody here."

The poor gal looked around and it was just me, her, my wife, and Swann. Not another soul was around us and nobody else would've noticed if he signed something for her. She shrugged her shoulders and left.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by whitey19thcentury

On a side note, the guy whose collection I purchased had a 3x5 signed by Alberto Lois, arguably the toughest sig among the 1979 Pirates team. I sold his 3x5 for $55 or so on eBay in '98. Fast forward half a decade later, and I was fortunate enough to buy quite a few lots from the MacAllister collection. Among one of the 3x5 lots I bought was no less than 30 Lois 3x5s! The last one I sold on eBay went for $5. So, yes, I saturated the market on those!

I didn't realize there were so many Lois 3X5s in that lot, but that's McAllister for you! Actually, a collector/dealer we know did two signings with Lois in the early 2000's. 3X5s (as well as Topps cards and a ball or two) were signed.

Lois' story is an interesting one. In 1980, Lois' car was hit by a train while he was under the influence. He ended up losing both an eye and his career as a result. He now lives in a two-room, dirt-floored shack with his wife and a multitude of offspring.

[whitey19thcentury]

Jodi, I am being conservative on the amount of Lois 3x5s that were in that lot. I sold many, kept one for my collection, and traded a few.

I did hear about the signing, and I assume most of the Lois sigs that pop up are from that signing or 3x5 from MacAllister.

I heard his story, and it is an intriguing one as he was a highly-regarded prospect, but that wreck cost him his career, obviously. Doesn't he have like 17 kids?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

...and eight and a half bunk beds, I'm told.

[the-illini]

I am working on a signed 1984 Topps set, and there is one card from that set that makes Mike Witt seem like a piece of cake: Byron Mclaughlin.

Mclaughlin pitched from 1977-83 and was included in the 84 Topps set. Turns out he was something of a shady fellow and he disappeared from the country after serving time for a felony counterfeiting charge, not too long after the 1984 Topps set was issued. I have seen one 84 Topps card signed by him sell for over $500 bucks - truly the T206 Wagner of the signed 1984 Topps set (if not as popular!)

[steve B]

Originally Posted by JBirkholm

It can't be Nordhagen; he's been a great signer over the years, although his recent response rate has been somewhat unpredictable (most likely due to an address change or two). Perhaps you're thinking of Doug Flynn or Ricky Wright.

Ok the memory is getting bad then. Neither of those other names seem familiar either. Nahoradny? It was a longish name, I'm feeling a trip through the old SCDs coming on. It's going to bug me till I remember or look it up.

Steve B

[Scott Garner]

Some of you that know me are aware that I collect the autographs of every pitcher that ever threw a no-hitter.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that Mike Witt was a willing signer in person during his playing days and remains that way even now. He's an extremely cordial guy that would always sign whatever you had and usually spend a minute chatting with you. Today he spends alot of his free time playing golf in south Orange County, CA. Like many players and ex-players, he's not big into signing through the mail. He doesn't frequently do paid signings, but those of you that live in So Cal, keep your eyes open at golf charity pro-ams. Witter loves to play golf and he'll sign for free if you run into him.

[novakjr]

Scott, I got a question for you. Since you collect autographs of no-hit pitchers, are you, or aren't you counting Armando Galarraga? I've been thinking about whether or not to count him in my perfect gamers.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Scott, I got a question for you. Since you collect autographs of no-hit pitchers, are you, or aren't you counting Armando Galarraga? I've been thinking about whether or not to count him in my perfect gamers.

Hi David,
FWIW, in my book Armando Galarraga ABSOLUTELY makes the grade as far as being a perfect game pitcher. Anyone that can get 28 outs without giving up a baserunner should be in the record books! I believe that it's a crime that he isn't going to be listed in the record books along the other 20. If not for the horrible blown call by umpire Jim Joyce on the 27th out he would be there.

That being said, I believe that the uniqueness of what this game became to all that followed the story (outstanding character and sportsmanship demonstrated by both Galarraga and Joyce) makes this one for the ages.

BTW, my personal collection of no-hit tickets and autographs includes these players that threw 9 innings of perfect game ball, but don't meet the absolute of what currently defines a "perfect game":

Babe Ruth/ Ernie Shore
Harvey Haddix
Pedro Martinez/Mel Rojas
Armando Galarraga

As an aside, I actually wrote to the Commissioner of Baseball, Bud Selig the day after the Galarraga "almost perfect" game. I was shocked that he took the time to respond back to me. I have since had both Armando Galarraga and umpire Jim Joyce also sign the letter.

Remember to always collect what you personally enjoy!!

[novakjr]

That's awesome about the letter. I was leaning towards including Galarraga with the Perfect Gamers, and I was already including Martinez, Haddix and Shore on my list.

If I remember correctly, didn't the governor of Michigan sign some bill stating that the state recognizes him as having thrown a perfect game?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by novakjr

That's awesome about the letter. I was leaning towards including Galarraga with the Perfect Gamers, and I was already including Martinez, Haddix and Shore on my list.

If I remember correctly, didn't the governor of Michigan sign some bill stating that the state recognizes him as having thrown a perfect game?

David,
You are correct about Michigan and the Galarraga game. At least they got it right.

I'll try get a photo/scan of the letter and post it at some point in the future.

Here is my favorite early signature of Ernie Shore in my personal collection. It's a vintage 3 x 5 signed in steel-tipped fountain pen.

[vintagechris]

John Littlefield is tough from the 80's.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by JBirkholm

He now lives in a two-room, dirt-floored shack with his wife and a multitude of offspring.

AKA children.

[Orioles1954]

A little off th beaten path, but does anyone know of any signed 1954 Topps Howie Fox cards?

[Topps206]

Vuckovich is doing a show in April starting at $45.00.