Which Jackie would you buy?

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Thinking about adding a 52 Jackie. Torn between these two. One PSA and the other SGC. Which do you like better?

REA SGC 8 (ends 9/22/24):
https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...?itemid=188465 (https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...?itemid=188465)

HERITAGE PSA 8 (ends 10/4/24)
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...ription-071515 (https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...ription-071515)

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

If you want an 8, I'd surely wait. Both of those cards are irksome, both for the grade and how they present regardless.

What's going on with the bottom corner of the SGC? Unidentifiable detritus? Common printer's mark of which I wasn't aware?

More things going on with them?

For all the aspects which would trouble me with those two cards, I have to imagine there are countless examples even three grades lower which I would find much more aesthetically pleasing, but that's just me.

[Lorewalker]

I would pass on both regardless of the price.

[GeoPoto]

I prefer the one I already have.

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

I prefer the one I already have.

...and there you go. That didn't take long! And it's a 5.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

If you want an 8, I'd surely wait. Both of those cards are irksome, both for the grade and how they present regardless.

What's going on with the bottom corner of the SGC? Unidentifiable detritus? Common printer's mark of which I wasn't aware?

More things going on with them?

For all the aspects which would trouble me with those two cards, I have to imagine there are countless examples even three grades lower which I would find much more aesthetically pleasing, but that's just me.

Just noticed the mark on the SGC. Maybe common printers mark? Noticed it on this PSA 8.5 as well.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Yep. Thought that was likely the case.

[ccre]

Choosing between the two options? The SGC all day long.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

What's going on with the bottom corner of the SGC? Unidentifiable detritus? Common printer's mark of which I wasn't aware?

That is a very common print mark. It is present on Type 1 Jackies which are cut high enough. The SGC 8 is a Type 1, the PSA 8 is a Type 2.

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

For all the aspects which would trouble me with those two cards, I have to imagine there are countless examples even three grades lower which I would find much more aesthetically pleasing, but that's just me.

Ya, I agree. I would pass on both of these copies. That said, the SGC 8 is the far superior card of the two above. I would wait for a centered copy to surface in a lower grade, personally. Although then you'd probably find yourself competing against me if you found one lol.

[Snowman]

Here are a few of mine. I would much rather buy 3 of these than one of those.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

That is a very common print mark. It is present on Type 1 Jackies which are cut high enough. The SGC 8 is a Type 1, the PSA 8 is a Type 2.

Thanks. Yeah, it's coming back to me the more I stare at it. My hobby focus has been off (unsigned) cards for over 30 years, so a lot of that old knowledge I used to carry around was clearly pushed aside to make room for information more relevant to my side of things!

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

That is a very common print mark. It is present on Type 1 Jackies which are cut high enough. The SGC 8 is a Type 1, the PSA 8 is a Type 2.



Ya, I agree. I would pass on both of these copies. That said, the SGC 8 is the far superior card of the two above. I would wait for a centered copy to surface in a lower grade, personally. Although then you'd probably find yourself competing against me if you found one lol.

What's difference between type 1 and type 2? Wasn't aware of the different designations....

[LEHR]

Between the two 8's listed I'd take the SGC. The centering kills it for me on the PSA card even though the registration is a little better on the PSA. Ultimately for the kind of money these will bring I'd probably wait for a better copy to come up.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

What's difference between type 1 and type 2? Wasn't aware of the different designations....

There are numerous differences when you examine them closely, but here are a few that make it easy to detect right away, circled in yellow in the images below.

• The top left corner of the image box on a Type 1 is sharper and protrudes out to the left, whereas on the Type 2, it has more of a smooth rounded corner
• The stars on the left edge of the name box has a partial white star at the top of the box in the Type 1s that isn't present on the Type 2s
• The top border black line is more slanted on the Type 1 than on the Type 2
• There is often a small print mark on Type 1s at the bottom right corner in the border, as shown in the SGC 8 in the OP
• There is sometimes a small fisheye near Jackie's hat in the Type 2s that isn't present in the Type 1s (but isn't always present in Type 2s)
• On the back, the threads on the baseball face right in the Type 2s (top image shown below) and they face left in the Type 1s
• The right edge of the text box alignment extends further to the right on Type 1s than it does on Type 2s

[Kidnapped18]

SGC is clearly the better copy
PSA example has that printers mark/defect on top of hat and is not centered with slight skew to the right

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

What's difference between type 1 and type 2? Wasn't aware of the different designations....

Yes it's like the Mantle, which was double printed with slight differences between the versions.

[JollyElm]

Sadly, with my budget, this is completely out of my milieu, but if you need help choosing the better bargain between a PSA 5 and an SGC 5 1973 Topps Willie Montanez, I am definitely your man!!!!

[babraham]

I'd hold off and wait for a better looking 8 if I was set on an 8.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

There are numerous differences when you examine them closely, but here are a few that make it easy to detect right away, circled in yellow in the images below.

• The top left corner of the image box on a Type 1 is sharper and protrudes out to the left, whereas on the Type 2, it has more of a smooth rounded corner
• The stars on the left edge of the name box has a partial white star at the top of the box in the Type 1s that isn't present on the Type 2s
• The top border black line is more slanted on the Type 1 than on the Type 2
• There is often a small print mark on Type 1s at the bottom right corner in the border, as shown in the SGC 8 in the OP
• There is sometimes a small fisheye near Jackie's hat in the Type 2s that isn't present in the Type 1s (but isn't always present in Type 2s)
• On the back, the threads on the baseball face right in the Type 2s (top image shown below) and they face left in the Type 1s
• The right edge of the text box alignment extends further to the right on Type 1s than it does on Type 2s

Thanks for all the info and laid out so nicely! Very informative. What version is the more desirable?

[ClementeFanOh]

AJ- I'd go with the SGC by a hair. Amazing the number of folks who reply
while ignoring your direct question. You can lead a horse to water...

Trent King

[Rhotchkiss]

SGC crushes in my opinion

That said, I don’t like the picture tilt for that grade, and as others stated, I would pass and wait for a better centered one, especially in an 8

[bk400]

Sgc

[The Detroit Collector]

Put me in with a vote for SGC

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Was Jackie a known double print? On some of the cards in the thread the image rides up to the right in comparison to the top edge, yet at the bottom border the image and the edge are perfectly parallel. So the image just isn't square. On other pictures it's perfectly square, all sides of the image are parallel to each other. This CAN'T be a cut issue as it's the actual picture of Jackie that's not square, nothing to do with the shape of the card.

EDIT: I just looked more closely, all of the diagonal cut images also have the dot in the upper right corner of the tooling too. Must be a double print like the Mantle.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

From my calculations there's only 51 total 8's graded PSA & SGC. Not a lot to choose from. And I'm always fascinated at previous grades by both as far as consistency goes. Here's some other 8's I was able to find. Seems the two up now are in line with these others....what do you think?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Thanks for all the info and laid out so nicely! Very informative. What version is the more desirable?

I have a very slight preference for the type 2, but the market values them equivalently and I'd never pass on a type 1 that fits my centering and condition criteria

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Was Jackie a known double print? On some of the cards in the thread the image rides up to the right in comparison to the top edge, yet at the bottom border the image and the edge are perfectly parallel. So the image just isn't square. On other pictures it's perfectly square, all sides of the image are parallel to each other. This CAN'T be a cut issue as it's the actual picture of Jackie that's not square, nothing to do with the shape of the card.

EDIT: I just looked more closely, all of the diagonal cut images also have the dot in the upper right corner of the tooling too. Must be a double print like the Mantle.

Yes, cards 311 (Mantle), 312 (Jackie), and 313 (Bobby Thompson) were all double printed. Everyone knows about the Mantle, but not many know about the Jackie. See my post above showing the differences between the Type 1 and Type 2 Jackies. The central images (black borders) are out of square, as you mentioned, but it is more pronounced on the Type 1. This is actually one of the easiest ways to spot a trimmed 52 Topps Jackie. Some of the trimmers didn't know that the image itself was out of square, so they would trim the top edge parallel to the black border thinking they were correcting a diamond cut, when in actuality, they were creating one.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

From my calculations there's only 51 total 8's graded PSA & SGC. Not a lot to choose from. And I'm always fascinated at previous grades by both as far as consistency goes. Here's some other 8's I was able to find. Seems the two up now are in line with these others....what do you think?

The only copy that would have a snowball's chance in hell at receiving an 8 again today is cert 24675072. All of the others would regrade as Altered or come back in lower grades.

In fact one of these copies you posted was recently purchased by one of Brady Hill's friends. I told the buyer that it was most certainly trimmed and that he should reach out to PSA and file a claim because if that slab were to get damaged somehow, he'd be out the money and that it was risky to hold onto it. Brady then lashed out at me, calling me an idiot, telling me I didn't know what I was talking about, etc. Told me how he had over 100 of these in the past and that he knows the card so well and that I'm an idiot. I told his friend to believe whoever he wanted but that I wasn't guessing on this card and that I was 100% confident and that Brady doesn't know what he's talking about (as clearly evidenced by the countless trimmed cards in his own collection). Fortunately, his buddy did reach out to PSA and had them review the card. They agreed with me and are now cutting him a check. Crickets from Brady though, of course.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Thinking about adding a 52 Jackie. Torn between these two. One PSA and the other SGC. Which do you like better?

REA SGC 8 (ends 9/22/24):
https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...?itemid=188465 (https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...?itemid=188465)

HERITAGE PSA 8 (ends 10/4/24)
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...ription-071515 (https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...ription-071515)

The SGC and it’s not even close.

[Gorditadogg]

The SGC looks nice to me.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[robw1959]

The SGC 8 is better.

[icurnmedic]

Both are weak for the grade.
With these, My inclination is to the SGC but the image is better on the PSA! I’m guessing the SGC may be significantly less $ so that would be the one I would make a play for.

[Johnny630]

SGC 8 out of these two. No question.

[Republicaninmass]

Im not OK with the dramatic tilt on the top of the sgc card and not as much at the bottom.

That would irk me until I sold it

That psa 8 looks like an old flip that was cleansed into a new flip.

Hard pass on both here, more so at the precipice of the market IMO

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Im not OK with the dramatic tilt on the top of the sgc card and not as much at the bottom.

That would irk me until I sold it

That psa 8 looks like an old flip that was cleansed into a new flip.

Hard pass on both here, more so at the precipice of the market IMO

That's how the card is printed though lol. All type 1 Jackies have that tilt on the top border. If it doesn't, it's trimmed

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, cards 311 (Mantle), 312 (Jackie), and 313 (Bobby Thompson) were all double printed. Everyone knows about the Mantle, but not many know about the Jackie. See my post above showing the differences between the Type 1 and Type 2 Jackies. The central images (black borders) are out of square, as you mentioned, but it is more pronounced on the Type 1. This is actually one of the easiest ways to spot a trimmed 52 Topps Jackie. Some of the trimmers didn't know that the image itself was out of square, so they would trim the top edge parallel to the black border thinking they were correcting a diamond cut, when in actuality, they were creating one.

I actually noticed one of those in the thread. They trimmed the top edge square to the image, but left the bottom edge so now it's an irregular trapezoid. Of course it's in a slab so I guess it doesn't matter

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I actually noticed one of those in the thread. They trimmed the top edge square to the image, but left the bottom edge so now it's an irregular trapezoid. Of course it's in a slab so I guess it doesn't matter

Jackiesandjordans claim is every one is crooked on the top. Guessing he would know

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Jackiesandjordans claim is every one is crooked on the top. Guessing he would know

They SHOULD be, but 02023137 the card edge and the image edge are perfectly parallel, and the bottom edge of the card is parallel to the case, however the top edge is NOT parallel to the case. Seems a clear case of someone squaring up the cut to the image not realizing that they now have an impossible shape. Bottom is square to the sides but the top edge runs up hill (to match the image) in comparison to the bottom edge (and the PSA Slab)

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

They SHOULD be, but 02023137 the card edge and the image edge are perfectly parallel, and the bottom edge of the card is parallel to the case, however the top edge is NOT parallel to the case. Seems a clear case of someone squaring up the cut to the image not realizing that they now have an impossible shape. Bottom is square to the sides but the top edge runs up hill (to match the image) in comparison to the bottom edge (and the PSA Slab)

Yes, that is the one I was referring to when I said I informed the owner that his card was trimmed. He had PSA review it and if you look up the cert, it now shows it in an AA holder.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Was Jackie a known double print? On some of the cards in the thread the image rides up to the right in comparison to the top edge, yet at the bottom border the image and the edge are perfectly parallel. So the image just isn't square. On other pictures it's perfectly square, all sides of the image are parallel to each other. This CAN'T be a cut issue as it's the actual picture of Jackie that's not square, nothing to do with the shape of the card.

EDIT: I just looked more closely, all of the diagonal cut images also have the dot in the upper right corner of the tooling too. Must be a double print like the Mantle.

Cards 311, 312 and 313 are all known double prints. To be best of my recollection, the sheets were 100 cards and since there were only 97 cards printed in the final series, they just started with 311-3 to finish off the sheet. So yes this is fairly well known amongst 52 collectors

Rich

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, that is the one I was referring to when I said I informed the owner that his card was trimmed. He had PSA review it and if you look up the cert, it now shows it in an AA holder.

Good to know I haven't lost my mind (or my eye)

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, that is the one I was referring to when I said I informed the owner that his card was trimmed. He had PSA review it and if you look up the cert, it now shows it in an AA holder.

Yikes that card once sold for $145,294.80

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

Yikes that card once sold for $145,294.80

Starting to get uncomfortably close to the $250k cap on PSA’s guarantee!

[Republicaninmass]

If you want to see some dreamers, ebay sort 1952 Jackies by highest price

[Snowman]

Deleted

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

Starting to get uncomfortably close to the $250k cap on PSA’s guarantee!

Ya, it's a $250k cap per card, but there's also a lifetime cap of $500k per individual. So you don't get many chances to cash in when something goes wrong if you're a high end collector. Some of these guys like Marshall Fogel, Ken Kendrick, and Brady Hill have millions of dollars worth of trimmed cards in their collections and they don't even know it. It's a significant risk to carry. Fogel's 52 Mantle is sheet cut.

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Ya, it's a $250k cap per card, but there's also a lifetime cap of $500k per individual. So you don't get many chances to cash in when something goes wrong if you're a high end collector. Some of these guys like Marshall Fogel, Ken Kendrick, and Brady Hill have millions of dollars worth of trimmed cards in their collections and they don't even know it. It's a significant risk to carry. Fogel's 52 Mantle is sheet cut.

100% agree. I honestly think over well 70% of high end pre-1970 cards are either trimmed or cleaned w/ who knows what chemicals. Back in the day, people soaked cards with all kinds of crap w/o knowing exactly the consequences. However, trimming is the #1 problem w/ vintage cuts.


So many older graded high end PSA cards are so obviously trimmed. If the owners of these took against PSA even if the max $ cap didn’t exist, their egos would be hurt w/ the reduced PSA set registry rankings.


E.g. I think the following card was trimmed. Might be wrong but don’t think I am.
Take this extremely high grade 1952 Topps Ed Mathews. Can’t believe this card passed grading even decades ago. Talk about a bad hair cut. Whoever this moron is, trimmed & destroyed an important card in the hobby. Everyone knows many 52 Topps have top borders that are slanted (that’s how the printer plate was made). So this person just trimmed the top to match the slanted border. Left side also looks short to me.

This card should have been left alone & still would have been a handsome card

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

100% agree. I honestly think over well 70% of high end pre-1970 cards are either trimmed or cleaned w/ who knows what chemicals. Back in the day, people soaked cards with all kinds of crap w/o knowing exactly the consequences. However, trimming is the #1 problem w/ vintage cuts.


So many older graded high end PSA cards are so obviously trimmed. If the owners of these took against PSA even if the max $ cap didn’t exist, their egos would be hurt w/ the reduced PSA set registry rankings.


E.g. I think the following card was trimmed. Might be wrong but don’t think I am.
Take this extremely high grade 1952 Topps Ed Mathews. Can’t believe this card passed grading even decades ago. Talk about a bad hair cut. Whoever this moron is, trimmed & destroyed an important card in the hobby. Everyone knows many 52 Topps have top borders that are slanted (that’s how the printer plate was made). So this person just trimmed the top to match the slanted border. Left side also looks short to me.

This card should have been left alone & still would have been a handsome card

It’s been deactivated from PSA certification

[Peter_Spaeth]

Travis -- basis for your claim about Fogel's Mantle?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Travis -- basis for your claim about Fogel's Mantle?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...810A78DCB1264F