JSA Team...

[jgmp123]

So JSA's team came out today to a local shop and offered their services. Not questioning their accuracy, but the kids they sent out looked like they just graduated high school....c'mon Jimmy!

[RichardSimon]

Those children are autograph authenticators?
OMG, that is funny and sad at the same time.
Does JSA give discounts when the children examine autographs?
Somehow, I doubt that.
This is disgraceful.

[Lordstan]

That is pretty funny.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Those children are autograph authenticators?
OMG, that is funny and sad at the same time.
Does JSA give discounts when the children examine autographs?
Somehow, I doubt that.
This is disgraceful.

I have no idea but would guess that the grading companies have the same type of employees to grade cards.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have no idea but would guess that the grading companies have the same type of employees to grade cards.

That is probably true, but telling authentic autos from fake ones take a lot more skill than deciding on whether or not a corner is creased or the image is off center.

[travrosty]

i am sure they are listed on the website as autograph authenticators. whats the world come to?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

That is probably true, but telling authentic autos from fake ones take a lot more skill than deciding on whether or not a corner is creased or the image is off center.

I agree with this, as grading cards and authenticating autographs are VERY different enterprises. I think it would be fairly easy to train an intelligent young person with sharp eyes to grade cards well and consistently. They wouldn't even have to have any prior knowledge of sports or sports cards at all, really. Becoming an autograph expert, on the other hand (and as pointed out here regularly and correctly), takes years and years of experience and a breadth of knowledge. What you (or in this case, Spence) could teach someone in a three-month training program would only help identify the silliest and most blatant of forgeries (think the snow white baseballs with wet sharpie Martin Dihigo autos in roaches corner auctions), not the sophisticated and well-done stuff that regularly gets submitted to large auction houses.

While ageism generally makes me wince, it is doubtful that the guys in that picture have had anything but the most perfunctory of authentication training, which is not very helpful. This is a field where experience trumps all.

[mighty bombjack]

I will add this for argument's sake: Maybe those guys simply collect and tag stuff to take in to JSA? Or are only there to do the "signed in the presence" stuff? Would their age make difference in those circumstances? I have never submitted anything in person, so I don't know for sure, but I didn't think you could get anything cert-ed on the spot like that.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

That is probably true, but telling authentic autos from fake ones take a lot more skill than deciding on whether or not a corner is creased or the image is off center.

+++

[Leon]

I would hope they are taking in submissions.

[polakoff]

The one on the right is their director of authentication.

http://www.spenceloa.com/OurExperts

[travrosty]

He must be an expert then. If someone searches his name and can find no hobby history, writeups or any type of background in the hobby at all, besides the bio at jsa website, it's a sign of something.

[polakoff]

Seems to have a pretty lengthy background to me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert..._(Philadelphia)

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Leon

I would hope they are taking in submissions.

I would hope that too.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by polakoff

Seems to have a pretty lengthy background to me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert..._(Philadelphia)

[7nohitter]

Originally Posted by travrosty

He must be an expert then. If someone searches his name and can find no hobby history, writeups or any type of background in the hobby at all, besides the bio at jsa website, it's a sign of something.

+1. And the writeup on the JSA site itself is not very impressive.

[polakoff]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The end parentheses didn't transfer to the link, thereby ruining my joke.

The whole operation is a joke if that dude is the "director of authentication"

[RichardSimon]

I stole this line but it is so appropriate,,,
"you won't even be able to go out with these guys after a show for a beer."

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by polakoff

The end parentheses didn't transfer to the link, thereby ruining my joke.

The whole operation is a joke if that dude is the "director of authentication"

If he is the director of authentication then is Jimmy not authenticating anymore or as the CEO does he just supervise?

[chaddurbin]

maybe steve z. can offer some insight into the guy. dude does look awfully young to have the experience to be the director of authentication, or he ages better than the rest of us.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

If he is the director of authentication then is Jimmy not authenticating anymore or as the CEO does he just supervise?

Spence is listed as Managing Member/Lead Authenticator. Not sure why the Lead Authenticator wouldn't be the Director of Authentication? I would think they would be pretty much the same job.

[travrosty]

i couldn't find out anything about this guy, but i couldnt find out anything about the last DOA either, funny director of authenticator spells out DOA.

[kengoldin]

guess I should read bios before posting

[travrosty]

His bio at JSA says he's an authenticator. The last director of authentication, Michael Root, was an authenticator for them too and is now somewhere else authenticating. I don't have a problem with young adults with no discernable hobby record authenticating if jsa doesn't. The customer can decide.

I still would like to know who the other guy is, i dont think he is on their authenticator page. why not list everybody that authenticates if they are indeed experts?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

So JSA's team came out today to a local shop and offered their services. Not questioning their accuracy, but the kids they sent out looked like they just graduated high school....c'mon Jimmy!

btw, is that dan mckee (card guy) waiting on his authentications? I could only imagine..

[Teamgluck]

I am the youngest person on net 54 at 20 and have been collecting for years but I am not close to being autograph expert yet. I wonder if those kids would pass a little quiz.
I am fine if someone is there signing in person and they are just giving out the certificate/letters of authenticity but authenticating requires experience and this is another loss of faith for the 2 industry giants.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

So JSA's team came out today to a local shop and offered their services. Not questioning their accuracy, but the kids they sent out looked like they just graduated high school....c'mon Jimmy!

James,
Good idea taking that photo. It has started a lively thread.

[Klrdds]

That photo is not a great endorsement for JSA who as we all know has had authentication issues in the past . Nor is that photo of the 2 youngsters looking at their database for exemplars ( those computers probably contain all their experience and expertise ) going to give me confidence in their opinions or JSA. I think I have been collecting for both of their ages combined.

[earlywynnfan]

Time for me to repeat my one and only JSA story: had a free coupon, so thought I'd get a Gene Conley ball authenticated, more as a lark. If anyone's seen Conley's sig, it's very legible. So I hand the ball and the coupon to the kid (if he wasn't a teenager, he was close!) who walks to the other side of the booth, but comes back to me with a puzzled look on his face. I say "It's Gene Conley." He nods, smiles, puts a sticker on it, enters the code into the computer, hands me the ball, and I walk away amazed that these people were raking in money all day long.

To this day, the part that gets me the most is that I wasn't smart enough to start a company like this!

Ken

[travrosty]

They got everybody you never heard of it seems, but you never heard of them because they ain't listed on the site, but thats the system now.

[packs]

Not to defend JSA because I have no idea what those people's credentials are, or even if they were certing items. However, I have been a collector for a very long time even though I'm young for the Board. I cannot tell you how frustrating it was to be at a show and ignored, or talked down to simply because of my age. I frequently knew more about the materials in a sellers case than they did.

Like I said, no idea what these guys backgrounds are. BUT, if you think just because you're young you've got nothing to offer, I can't help but be reminded of those old guys behind their cases.

[jgmp123]

It says in his JSA bio that he joined JSA shortly after graduating college to the director role.

There were a great deal of high end items being authenticated that day...I'm not sure about the outcomes, but I saw folks with items signed by Michael Jackson, Gene Wilder, Jeter, Cy Young, etc. waiting to be authenticated.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by packs

Not to defend JSA because I have no idea what those people's credentials are, or even if they were certing items. However, I have been a collector for a very long time even though I'm young for the Board. I cannot tell you how frustrating it was to be at a show and ignored, or talked down to simply because of my age. I frequently knew more about the materials in a sellers case than they did.

Like I said, no idea what these guys backgrounds are. BUT, if you think just because you're young you've got nothing to offer, I can't help but be reminded of those old guys behind their cases.

it doesnt have anything to do with that. younger people are welcome in the hobby, its just a fact that authenticating a wide range of athletes, etc requires years if not decades of intense study, something that people right out of college would be very unlikely to have. theses companies claim world class authenticators. it takes years and years and decades to become competent in authentication. it's just an experience thing. airline pilots, brain surgeons, many other lifetime accumulation skilled professions are similar to this. you have to build on the knowledge you acquire over many, many years. I did not feel comfortable at all giving my opinion on signatures until i had at least 7-10 years of hard study and around 32 years of age and to look back i still didnt know that much at age 32 compared to what i know now. its an intense thing to do that takes thousands of hours of study. that's the bottom line. you can't substitute a computer exemplar file for the knowledge you pick up over time. Nobody said a young person has nothing to offer. they have a lot to offer.

[packs]

I understand all that but it seemed like many of the comments about these guys are based around their age and appearance. Like I said, I have no idea what their backgrounds are. Reading those comments took me back to my own bad experiences with hobby people while I was young.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

it doesnt have anything to do with that. younger people are welcome in the hobby, its just a fact that authenticating a wide range of athletes, etc requires years if not decades of intense study, something that people right out of college would be very unlikely to have. theses companies claim world class authenticators. it takes years and years and decades to become competent in authentication. it's just an experience thing. airline pilots, brain surgeons, many other lifetime accumulation skilled professions are similar to this. you have to build on the knowledge you acquire over many, many years. I did not feel comfortable at all giving my opinion on signatures until i had at least 7-10 years of hard study and around 32 years of age and to look back i still didnt know that much at age 32 compared to what i know now. its an intense thing to do that takes thousands of hours of study. that's the bottom line. you can't substitute a computer exemplar file for the knowledge you pick up over time. Nobody said a young person has nothing to offer. they have a lot to offer.

+1

[packs]

Hey all I was saying was don't discount someone because of their age. We're looking at a photo of people behind a desk and making assumptions about what they do or do not know. Would you feel comfortable looking at that photo if it were just 2 old men back there? Either way you're just guessing at who you're looking at.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by packs

Hey all I was saying was don't discount someone because of their age. We're looking at a photo of people behind a desk and making assumptions about what they do or do not know. Would you feel comfortable looking at that photo if it were just 2 old men back there? Either way you're just guessing at who you're looking at.

Age doesn't qualify you to know what you are doing, so two old men may or may not know how to authenticate. but two young guys are almost assuredly going to lack the many, many years of experience it takes to authenticate autographs of all categories like they are being paid to do. If it takes many, many years of experience to be good at authenticating autographs, and they don't have many, many years, I guess I cant tell you any more than that.

[Stanesq]

An 18 year old and a 40 year old can both drive a car. When the tractor trailer makes an emergency manuever and comes into your lane, who do you want behind the wheel? The 18 year old with a years experience or the guy who has been driving 23 years and, at least in theory, had encountered similar emergent circumstances that will cause him to make an evasive manuever. In ,y scenario, sometimes its just the grace of God that saves you. In the world of authentication, I wonder how many items pass through the cracks of an inexperience authenticator.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Stanesq

An 18 year old and a 40 year old can both drive a car. When the tractor trailer makes an emergency manuever and comes into your lane, who do you want behind the wheel? The 18 year old with a years experience or the guy who has been driving 23 years and, at least in theory, had encountered similar emergent circumstances that will cause him to make an evasive manuever. In ,y scenario, sometimes its just the grace of God that saves you. In the world of authentication, I wonder how many items pass through the cracks of an inexperience authenticator.

Very good question at the end of your post.
Is a collector paying Spence $250 to have a young boy authenticate Babe Ruth from computer exemplars?

[JimStinson]

I don't think I've ever seen a photo in my life that made me want to LAUGH & CRY at the same time .....

Like watching Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder Play a game of ping pong !!!

They should have never cut corners and tried to save a few bucks on the curtains where you could not see who was doing the authentication.

Seriously If I was boarding a 747 to fly with my family knowing I would soon be flying in the air at 30,000 feet and as I boarded the plane I looked at the pilot and co pilot and saw THAT ...regardless of their , credentials , personalities or other intangibles I would immediately leave the plane and take a bus or wait till the next flight
________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

These guys would make me feel a little more comfortable with their expertise in flying although at the time they had very little experience in it
________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[travrosty]

But from the looks of the first photo, they have clipboards, so that's something.

You would take a bus, even if it meant an ocean crossing, you would risk the sharks.

[Teamgluck]

With problems in JSA and PSA appearing regularly do you think we are going to have more auction sites really solely on independent authenticators such as Stinson, Simon, Keating and Albersheim?

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Teamgluck

With problems in JSA and PSA appearing regularly do you think we are going to have more auction sites really solely on independent authenticators such as Stinson, Simon, Keating and Albersheim?

If only.

Tom C

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Teamgluck

With problems in JSA and PSA appearing regularly do you think we are going to have more auction sites really solely on independent authenticators such as Stinson, Simon, Keating and Albersheim?

Maybe my next call will be from Heritage

[Exhibitman]

The condescension here is not pretty. I know several 'younguns' who are extremely knowledgeable about the hobby. Like Brian Dwyer from REA. I don't know these two but I won't condemn them on appearances.

Also, the posts here assume that they are authenticating on site. I've seen JSA in action in settings like this and anything complex or obscure is taken back for review at the office.

[travrosty]

yeah but people have heard of brian dwyer, is he autographs by the way? thats a different ballgame.

nobody heard of these guys, ever. people dont just pop up out of the blue, and now they are world class autograph authenticators doing all genres and categories?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

yeah but people have heard of brian dwyer, is he autographs by the way? thats a different ballgame.

nobody heard of these guys, ever. people dont just pop up out of the blue, and now they are world class autograph authenticators doing all genres and categories?

+1

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The condescension here is not pretty. I know several 'younguns' who are extremely knowledgeable about the hobby. Like Brian Dwyer from REA. I don't know these two but I won't condemn them on appearances.

Also, the posts here assume that they are authenticating on site. I've seen JSA in action in settings like this and anything complex or obscure is taken back for review at the office.

Age should not be a factor Luis Armstrong was considered a prodigy at 11 and could not read music, Ernest Hemingway began writing the great American Novel "The Sun Also Rises" at age 25 , Chopin composed his best music prior to age 20 , And Mozart composed and performed to critical acclaim at the age of 5,
So we may be seeing today's autograph prodigy's at work , Dual signed photos available at the door ..$100.00
____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The condescension here is not pretty. I know several 'younguns' who are extremely knowledgeable about the hobby. Like Brian Dwyer from REA. I don't know these two but I won't condemn them on appearances.

Also, the posts here assume that they are authenticating on site. I've seen JSA in action in settings like this and anything complex or obscure is taken back for review at the office.

Adam,
I would appreciate knowing which knowledgeable younguns do you know of in the autograph hobby.