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#1
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
As long as we are airing subjects like this. |
#2
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: dennis
they pitched around mantle with men on base.NO TEAM let mantle beat them. don't lets stats sway you.mantle was one of the best players ever.he was a switch hitter, he was faster than mays,more powerful than mays,got on base more than mays,and was mays peer as a fielder. also mantles teams WON because of him. he led the league in runs scored all thru the 1950's and even tho his rbi's were not high,he was top 5 every year.it was a different era. any one who says mantle was over-rated just never saw him play. check out his appearences on the leader board. hall of fame moniter he is # 15 all time. http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mantlmi01.shtml |
#3
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Rob
Wasn't this topic locked? |
#4
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: leon
This was locked but it wasn't fair to Peter. I just want to let it be known that off topic stuff shouldn't be as frequent as it's been lately. As for most overrated player I think it's any of the cry baby steroid injesting home run hitters of recent.....regards |
#5
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: john/z28jd
Im probably the last person you'd expect to defend a Yankees player but saying Mantle only drove in 100 runs 4 times means he was overrated is a ridiculous statement.The reason for that is simple,he drove in 92 runs or more 9 times in his career.Those 5 seasons he finished between 92-99 were all seasons with the 154 game schedule so right there he's losing 8 games as compared to todays players.Four of the seasons he walked over 100 times and the one season he didnt he only played 121 games and had 92 rbi's and 79 walks.Four of the seasons the Yankees ran away with the division so he wasnt in there all the time near th end of the year,the one year they didnt win by alot,he had 99 rbi's and 113 walks in 147 games |
#6
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Anson
Which one of these doesn't belong: |
#7
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: jay behrens
No brainer in the pitching department, Koufax. As someone else mentioned, that debate has been reharshed enough, no need for anyone to some to his defense. Those of us that think is overrated have pretty much made up our minds, as have those that think he was the greatest pitcher since the curve ball was invented. This doesn't mean that he doesn't belong in the HOF. It jsut means that he is incredicly overrated. |
#8
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Scott Forrest
Overrated: Don Sutton, Phil Niekro, Bert Blyleven, Don Drysdale, Tony Oliva. |
#9
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
I don't think we are saying inconsistent things about Mantle. In my original post I acknowledged he was a very great player. I just think that there is a disparity between his status as THE hobby icon (his cards sell for multiples of equivalent Mays cards for example, he is THE card to own in every set from 51-69, he has a mythical quality that greater players do not, and so forth ad nauseum) and his place in baseball history which is probably in the third or fourth team all time outfield. I would personally take Mays, Ruth, Cobb, Williams, Musial, DiMaggio, and Bonds ahead of him, and possibly Speaker and Jackson (Shoeless, that is) too. A great player can be overrated too. That was my only point. EDITED TO ADD You guys who think Koufax is overrated are in disagreement with no less an authority than Casey Stengel who called him the best pitcher he had ever seen. |
#10
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: jay behrens
I bet you Casey would have never said that about him in the 50s. That pretty much covers half of Koufax's career. |
#11
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
How anyone can claim that Koufax is the "most overrated" pitcher is beyond me. His last four years of his career he averaged about 25 wins a season and an ERA well under 2. That, combined with 3 Cy Youngs (when only one was awarded for both leagues) and two back to back shutouts in the World Series (on two days rest) ends this discussion. Oh, and he also averaged about 300 innings per year during that period. Finally, in 57 World Series innings, he managed a 0.95 ERA. And let's not forget the 4 no hitters.... |
#12
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Scott Forrest
There are many who think the HOF should be based a player's ability to maintain at least an above average performance for a really long time period. |
#13
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Glenn
Jerry Koosman only had slightly more wins and K's than Sandy Koufax, but have you seen the prices on his rookie card?! |
#14
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Anson
that's pretty hilarious. |
#15
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
And imagine how much Kooz's rookie card would be worth if he hadn't been paired with such an overrated pitcher.... |
#16
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: jay behrens
Koufax wouldn't be considered such an overrated pitcher if he actualy had a winning record his first 7 years in the league. It always amazes me how Koufax fans just dismiss his first 6 years, which are mediocre, at best. No longevity and no consistancy other than he was consistanly bad for 6 years and dominating for another 6. Thus, why many think he is overrated. |
#17
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Jay, I think you're not appreciating what Koufax went through with Walt Alston as his manager in the early years. Alston pitched him very inconsistently, pushing him in and out of the rotation for no good reason. This was a recipe for disaster for a pitcher like Koufax who was trying to get into some kind of consistent groove. This is not just my opinion; most baseball historians support this theory as the reason for Koufax's difficult start to his career. Once he began to pitch consistently, he took off. |
#18
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Julie
WANNA FIGHT? |
#19
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Glenn
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/alltimeoverrated.html |
#20
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
And don't forget Koufax was only 30 when he retired. If he hadn't had such severe injuries, can you even imagine? |
#21
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Scott Forrest
but I really don't believe that many people consider Ryan "the greatest (hurler) in baseball history." That's an absurd statement. |
#22
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Anson
Randy Johnson sucked pretty bad for his first 4 or 5 years. |
#23
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: davidcycleback
In my opinion, big time hitters who were bad fielders are often overrated. Many Hall of Fame voters beleive that a player's friendliness to the press is a more important quality than fielding talent when determing who is a Hall of Famer. |
#24
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: john/z28jd
Koufax has Alston to thank for pushing him into the majors because without those first 5 years where he wasnt ready he wouldnt have enough seasons to even qualify for hall of fame induction. |
#25
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Glenn
Scott, |
#26
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)
I have to go with Nolan Ryan -- yes he belongs in the HOF ... but he really isn't one of the greatest Pitchers ever or even of my lifetime... If you had to pick one player to pitch one game for you to win from all of the starting Pitchers of the past 30 years Ryan doesn't even enter into the conversation for me.. Let's see we've got Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Jim Palmer, Roger Clemens, Gre Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson (once he got his game together)... |
#27
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Scott Forrest
I think they get "favorite" confused with "greatest". Out of all the sporting event moments I have looked forward to, going behind home plate to watch a Nolan Ryan fastball come straight at me was easily the best - what a rush. And there was always the possibility of seeing a no-hitter. It was pure excitement to see the guy pitch. |
#28
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: jay behrens
I'd agree with Scott on that. If I was told that I could only see one more game in person and had 2 games to choose from, one featuring Ryan and one feturing Clemens, I'm going to the Ryan game. Clemens is easily the greatest pitcher of our era, but for pure excitment, you can't touch Ryan. |
#29
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
John, I don't think Koufax would thank Alston for "pushing him into the majors." More likely, he'd curse him for not letting him pitch consistently when it was clear he had major league stuff. |
#30
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: john/z28jd
The only thing im suggesting Jeff is you dont ask me to explain it again for the 50th time.Use the search function and argue with the results all you want,me from the past wont care. |
#31
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
I get it -- so if he had only pitched nine years and not the ten required to be HOF eligibile --thereby removing his first, few average years from his record -- that would make him less of a great pitcher? That makes sense. According to that logic, had that been the case, Koufax's worth as a pitcher would be about equal to Fred McGriff's as a hitter. |
#32
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: john/z28jd
You dont get it,if he pitched 9 years he isnt eligible for the hall of fame and then he doesnt get in SO hes lucky he pitched before hes ready otherwise he wouldnt be a hall of famer.Not too many guys pitch in the majors before theyre 22.Do you understand that? Is that too complicated? Dont read into everything so much |
#33
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
John, you keep saying you don't want to discuss this issue further and yet you simply cannot keep your fingers off the keyboard. I'm guessing you have some other impulse issues when it comes to your hands, so I suppose we can all be comforted with the fact that your hands are on the keyboard and not someplace else. |
#34
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: jay behrens
No one is arguing that at his peak, Koufax wasn't dominant. But in order to be a truly great player, you need to be great for the vast majority of career, not half of it. |
#35
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Jay, it really depends on what you consider 'greatness' to be. I'm in the camp that holds that a lot of 'good' seasons strung together does not necessarily equate to greatness, i.e., Don Sutton. He was a really good pitcher but hardly 'great' at almost any given point in his career. Compare to Koufax who as brilliant as any pitcher has ever been for a four year period. Absolutely brilliant, courageous, and accomplished. No doubt that other pitchers that were almost as good as him over a four or five year period might have had better careers due to more years pitched; however, that does not take away from Koufax's singular greatness over not one season, not two, but really over like 5 years. He also won the Triple Crown of pitching. So, while you can criticize him for not putting up the numbers that some others have done, you cannot criticize his singular greatness over this period which is trumpeted by his peers. When people are asked "who is the greatest pitcher of all time?" -- and they mention Koufax -- they're not giving that answer based on all-time career stats on a piece of paper. They're saying Koufax because he was the greatest pitcher they ever saw in their lifetimes. |
#36
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: jay behrens
Show me where I've dismissed what Koufax did during his 5 years of greatness? I even admitted to it my last post. You obviously didn't read my post. Go back and reread it. And Forrest wonders why I repeat myself so much. |
#37
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: jay behrens
Can't remember who pointed this out first. MAy have been Forrest, but take a look at Gooden's career. You essentially have Koufax in reverse. Are you going to tell me Gooden is one of the all-time greatest pitcher too? |
#38
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: dennis
for those first few years gooden was greatone of the best ever,94mph fast ball,big leg buckling curve,but arm trouble and maybe too much too soon...what could of been? and a great nickname too! |
#39
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Julie
Someone said, in considering whether a player should be in the HOF, you should ask the question "Was he the greatest in the game AT ANY TIME during his career?" (I assume he didn't mean for one game.) |
#40
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Bob
"a look at Gooden's career. You essentially have Koufax in reverse" |
#41
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: john/z28jd
Sorry Jeff i was at work.Your response is very immature and doesnt help your side of the story,but i will answer the one part. |
#42
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: calvindog
John, I'm sorry you think that my post was "immature." My advice in the future so that you won't be offended again: don't insult me first unless you don't mind getting your ass kicked out here again. |
#43
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: john/z28jd
Sandy Koufax is the greatest pitcher ever.If there was one game only in baseball history left and i was the manager for that game and i could pick any pitcher it would be Sandy Koufax. If i was a girl and i could pick anyone to father my kids it would be Sandy Koufax so i could name him Sandy Koufax Jr and people would come up to him and say your father was the greatest pitcher ever,heres $5 and he would be the happiest kid ever! |
#44
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Charlie
Who's Sandy Koufax? |
#45
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
John, I knew you'd see it my way eventually. I think you're just working too hard on a holiday weekend. Glad you got some rest to clear your mind. |
#46
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: john/z28jd
Oh thats it Charlie,we are about to trade punches like baseball cards! |
#47
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: calvindog
And John, just think how much brain power you're saving not having to answer the question I kept asking! |
#48
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: john/z28jd
I told you why hes the best ever.Do you know of any player who had their name put into the words of one of our countries most sacred songs? no! I dont think i need to put any stats down for you to realize that Jeff,the historical significance alone of the song should be proof enough.Now ill have no more of you saying hes overrated Jeff.Hes not,theres no way he could be and its just silly flimflarm |
#49
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
John, you're logic really is brilliant. I'm surprised such brilliance hasn't allowed you to find a job that allows you to take the day off on July 4! |
#50
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most overrated player and pitcher
Posted By: tbob
Tony Oliva the most overrated player????? |
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